USPS Struggles to Profit

Posted on July 28, 2010 by George B.

There’s few things I appreciate more than the big smile and the attitude of my mail carrier Russ. I send out far more packages than the average guy, and once in a while Russ needs two hands to pull it from the mail box. One day I apologized to him for exercising his arm, he smiled warmly, and said “George, I’m glad to have a job!  Just keep them coming!”

I have a lot of experience with the flat rate boxes, these are both good and bad, but what I like is you don’t have to weigh it, just ship the darned thing light or heavy, sometimes I’m in a hurry.

Whatever fits, goes. But when I send a pulley out for example, I use the smaller shipping box that stands 8 inches tall, the pulley is only two inches or so tall, so then I need to fill up the box with stuff that will go to the land fill. Several times I’ve swept the floor of my shop and just poured in saw dust, metal shavings from the lathe, dirty gritty packing, Styrofoam peanuts, and a lot of empty plastic sacks,  little plastic envelopes that come off junk I buy, or the wife brings home. One day a friend was watching and said, “The guy you are shipping that off to is going to kick your ass for sending him all that crap! I replied, it’s usually only Randy Allmand, and yes he’s bigger than me, but he can’t drive all the way up here from Silver City New Mexico to kick my Ass 🙂

Covington, WA Post office is one of the better Post Offices I’ve ever done business with, the employees there proudly display a sign on the wall that says “in God we trust” There’s been an occasional lefty from Seattle who’s visited, and demanded the sign come down, but it remains thus far. Covington Post office views me as a customer, when I finally get to the front of the line, I often get a smile. The folks there noted that it was rather ridiculous to force people to stand in line, so they allow you to drop these prepaid packages that are ready to go on a table to the right of the serving windows, “a closely monitored area under the camera’s eye”. Prior to this, I could wait in line up to 15 minutes to hand the parcel to the person at the window only to have them set it on the same table.

One time I was in downtown Kent, and decided to drop a Flat Rate box there, I saw about a dozen people in line, and one window open, there were other postal workers there, but maybe not qualified to open another window? I went to a window where there were a few packages dropped, and set my prepaid ready to go item down, as I spun around to leave, the guy behind the counter yelled at me. “Hey you can’t do that, it’s against the law!, pick that package up and get in line like everyone else!”  I sheepishly obeyed, and noticed the other people in line staring at me. As I waited my turn, I realized that the downtown Kent Post office is closer to our center of Socialist activity (Seattle), and these people are more conditioned to the Norms and behavior of Socialists.

I have a lot of experience with shipping pulleys now, and recently I have become a little guilty about shipping all this crap to my friends and customers. I started to take a razor knife, and cut the box at the corners, this allows me to fold the top flaps in further and makes the box far shorter and easier to pick up, I add a lot less packing too!  Things were going fine till I got a call from Randy Allmand in Silver City New Mexico. He got a card in the mail that he had packages at the post office he needed to pick up, when he got there, he was told they had been sent illegally, and if the Post Master there in Silver City had wanted too, he could have sent them all the way back to Kent, and forced the sender to repay and resend them legally.

I told Randy, this is insane, if he had an issue, why didn’t he take it up with he Post Office that sent it to him? Why does he punish you the ‘receiver’ of these sins? The Silver City Post Master found himself in a position of power, and he simply needed to tell Mr. Allmand face to face how lucky he was to have these packages, and it was only though his benevolence that he had them at all!

I told Randy I wanted to talk to Silver City, they are the only post office in the USA that can bash up a box, and deliver it smashed open all too often, and parts missing,. Randy says, hey they are a lot better now, it’s possible that that happened before it got to Silver City, “don’t make trouble for me George, this is a small town, and I don’t want to be driving down here for every reason the Post Master can think of to hold my mail, besides other people working in that Post Office are always helpful!”

As I set here thinking about the logic, as I think about Mother Earth and her needs. What can I fill this box with to assure that pulley arrives inside the box? If it’s loose, you can simply rock it back and forth and it will wear a hole through the card board..

The answer is Sand! It’s friendly stuff to the planet, it’ll keep the pulley centered and it’s great packing material. There are some downsides, small tears at the corners of the box could let the sand out, the trucks, conveyors, sorting equipment, might have problems with sand, but this common beach sand won’t be much of a problem at the land fill.

I thought making the box smaller was good for everyone, far easier to pick up, stack, no packing material required, but I was wrong again 🙁

I was thinking, they’re looking to downsize the Post Office, can you imagine a better bureaucrat to transfer to your new Government Healthcare program than the Post Master at Silver City? Ever talk to a person on Medicaid who has given up on using his prescription coverage because of all the does, don’ts and cant’s? Here’s a man that can likely memorize all the reasons to say NO on the first day!

Let’s look at the facts here, I did call my Post Office and talked to the manager there, he said. “Even though we decided to mail your package as it was packaged by you, the Post Master in Silver City STILL has the authority to reject it”

Makes me wonder about Government health care. What analogy could we use? I know!

“just because we stopped your heart doesn’t mean we have to start it again”

I love government..

Posted in Strange Stuff | Leave a comment

Coatings and Finishes

Posted on July 28, 2010 by George B.

Many DIYers take the time to research and de-bunk some of this stuff.  I often turn to aircraft engines and associated documentation thinking that this may be a more reliable source of information.

Do you remember Slick 50?  It was expensive, it was hype, and it didn’t work.

Today there are even more coatings with suppliers claiming they do work, they offer evidence and suggest you and I can apply some of these things at home. Many of these products came out of the space program. Some of them are used in racing engines where piston skirts, piston tops, combustion chambers, and more are all treated. Some act as thermal insulators, others make the metal shed oil and return to the pan faster. It seems there’s a coating that will accomplish most of what we DIYers would like to have, and these coatings are becoming cheaper and more available. Some claim dramatic horse power increases when they apply thermal barriers and dry lube coatings that get baked on at Temperatures as low as 300 degrees. Does this stuff really work??

What is available to the DIYer? …. Is there a wonder substance that can be sprayed into a cylinder bore and bonded there to improve cylinder performance? As you may know, there’s a number of chrome finishes that have been used for many years in cylinder bores.   Possibly the biggest benefit is the surface’s ability to inhibit rust. This could be a worth while advantage if your engine is left setting for months at a time with no use.  From the little research I’ve done, some of these old chrome processes are less effective than modern finishes, and it appears they can have a down side over a good steel cylinder bore of the proper composition, so maybe we should do some research before we wish we had a chrome cylinder bore in our generator.

Manufacturers of slow speed diesels suggest you pull the head periodically and remove the carbon. Would some of these wonder coatings prevent the carbon build up? Several of the companies that make this stuff say it will. A small Chinese Horizontal or Lister powered generator with a test load could tell the story in a hurry.

Here’s a place where you can get a flavor for what’s going on if this subject is new to you.

Another worthwhile read is what has been applied to cylinder liners, and what is being used now. I offer these links to get you started. If you find something interesting, consider emailing me the link and a little about what you found.

http://www.eci2fly.com/Tech_Ref/BreakInInstructions/bi5.htm

http://www.radialengines.com/faq.asp

Following are other links from readers:  I don’t have a clue if this stuff is for real or not.

http://www.luboron.com

If you have first hand experience with any of this stuff, ‘as it pertains to small engines’, consider sending me an email.

Posted in DIYer Skills | Leave a comment

Christmas Valley Buffalo Ranch

Posted on July 28, 2010 by George B.

The Lister 6/1 proves itself off the grid!

If you want water here, there’s plenty, just go down about 100 feet to find it. The ground is sandy and perks well. Not too far down the road was a good clay pit, and a pond was made and lined with a fine clay. After the well was dug, a 3 wire, 1hp,  220 volt submersible pump was fitted, the owner used a gas generator to run the submersible pump at a little less than a gallon an hour, it was really getting into his wallet!

Along comes Bob R. with the story about the rugged and legendary Lister CS 6/1 diesel.

Here’s Rick setting up the Lisgen6/1 with the Allmand drive.  Notice the killer radiator on the wall, and notice how the hoses run upwards for the best in cooling and promoting a good thermal flow, oops! that lower hose dips look out!

The Lister 6/1 was pumping a solid 15 days in 24/7 mode, and averaged exactly 3 gallons of fuel a day! This makes pretty reasonable off grid power, and if you follow Mac McQuaid’s lead and burn waste veggie, you’ll be making some BTUs at a far more reasonable cost.

Thanks for sharing the pictures with us, Bob!  I put all all the pictures sent to me on the Utterpower CD and we’ll try and get the rest of the story on there, too.

Posted in Generators | Leave a comment

Pellet Stoves

Posted on July 28, 2010 by George B.

Is there finally a pellet stove worth considering?

One of our biggest disappointments was a rather significant investment in the leader of pellet stoves. I’ve told the story elsewhere, and it was truly one of the biggest mistakes I’ve made in purchasing anything for our house.

We went with the trend at the time and pulled out our trusted conventional wood stove, and in went the top of the line pellet stove with a factory rep coming out to tweak in and approve of the installation.

Our feet were cold, our heads too warm, and the fan was so loud we couldn’t hear the TV. The family room,  the most enjoyable and most used room in the house, became a torture chamber!

That radiant heat the wood stove provided was so sorely missed, that we yanked out the new pellet stove and had it for sale in the local paper the following week. We felt blessed in the fact that we had kept the wood stove, and back into the house it went!  That was over 15 years ago, and we still have the wood stove!

But here’s something I haven’t seen before, the key word is radiant!  It’s what makes the wood stove so nice, this is what your body and mind can grow literally addicted to!  Check it out and please report back.  It’s about time!

Posted in Things I like | Leave a comment

Vehicle Design

Posted on July 28, 2010 by George B.

I know what goes on inside the DIYer’s head. If you were born with a more serious case of DIY, you will rationalize a lot of things just so you can get your hands into the project. This often annoys your wife, as she attempts to put you in touch with reality. She recalls the time you paid more money for a Heathkit than you could have paid for the same item already assembled!

How dumb is that?

Yes, I know how it is… Even with people are all around you, you’re not engaged in conversation at the moment, and you drift off to that part of your brain where your future projects are stored. There are details you haven’t worked out yet, you visualize donor parts, drive trains, you go through a list of the popular frame and suspension designs you have inventoried in your brain. Those around you note your lack of apparent social skills, and of course, you are wondering how your wife ever talked you into attending a Tupperware party in the first place?

What is the difference between the best of DIYers and Engineers? I guess that depends a lot on the DIYer and the Engineer, doesn’t it?

As you read this, you’ll be thinking about all the time you have thought about three wheels vs four wheels on the ground, you’ve attempted to visualize the G forces in your mind’s eye, and maybe you’ve even taken a test drive in your imaginary vehicle?

I’ve been working on my own design for a three-wheeler for a number of years, but there are so many variables and compromises to be analyzed that your mind can stall and you fall out of your daydream.

The Solution?

Find an engineer who is also a DIYer and add to that one who has the maturity to communicate to his audience and convey information, not just to impress his peer group. But, we add another requirement, he must be a good writer as well. All too rare you say?

Dave Norton fits the bill!  You’ll love the way he writes and information flows from his words in ways that happen only when you have labored over something with an intensity that most mortals never achieve. His writing is a quick course in understanding just how much work it is to a

Posted in Projects, Vehicle Design | 1 Comment

VW’s 1.9 TD Problem and Solution

Posted on July 28, 2010 by George B.

Added NOTE : This post was written with the ‘flicker’ electrical problem we see in the sine wave of a diesel powered generator, how to mitigate that peak power pulse?

When diesels are used as prime movers,  the fewer the cylinders the larger effect, the lower the flywheel mass, the more noticable as well.  Any errors or omissions in fact.. as it relates to the VW design, please scroll down and use comment. This may be a basic physics study about mechanical and electrical energy, and how to manage that peak power stroke.

I have been studying an interesting problem  that VW had in their Turbo Diesel, and what they did to fix it.  It’s best to tell enough of the story to give you a good picture, and you can follow up with some Google searches to learn more…If you have better information, more precise info, please scroll down to comments and let us know… please!

The first failures noted by enthusiasts probably started getting some attention in the early 1.9 TD (IDI) engines. The 1.9 was a lot like the 1.6TD that was pretty much trouble free, BUT the stroke was made longer and the engine produces a lot of torque across the range. Peak Horsepower is similar to the 1.6 TD

Problems were soon noticed, crank mounted pulleys >SPROCKETS< began to wobble, the cam belt sprocket got loose and literally ate away the key integrated into the sprocket. To bring the picture into focus, the sprocket anchors the Serpentine pulley with an integrated harmonic balancer. IF this rather small key gives way, we have a train wreck because this is an interference engine, when the valves hit the piston tops, it may be cheaper to order a good used engine than to try and fix it..

Some believe the majority of the trouble was caused by taking the sprocket off the crank, and NOT torquing it to spec, and not using the new bolt, others suggest the new TDI used a better system for keying the crank and sprocket because of these problems, regardless of the root cause of the trouble.

Now  there’s some interesting study here. There were few problems in the 1.6 TD and now a lot of problems in the 1.9? We’ve noted the longer stroke, but there’s another thing VW did, and I’m not so sure they caught the significance of making this change and accounting for the rather brutal peak torque easily communicated via a far more efficient drive system, yes, they dropped the VEE belts, and moved to the serpentine system to join many other manufacturers!

There are several additional factors that appear to contribute to the failure, some pointed to the reuse of the bolt that held the sprocket to the crank designed for a single use (torque to yield).  Apparently both professional mechanics and  home mechanics ignored this fact, and reused the bolt. Others pointed out that the torque setting is about 111 ft pounds, and many who changed out these cam belts probably did not have a proper torque wrench to apply this amount of force, AND unlike the better mechanics, didn’t understand that you don’t need take this sprocket off to change the belt, in many if not all cases.

We know there’s less penalty if we over engineer something VS leave a system like this in place for Owners to risk the loss of an engine, and since the recommended belt change is at 60K miles, it’s possible that the dealer or VW itself could >EAT< the loss.  Add to this the bad press VW gets for half Assed engineering, especially for a company where many ASSUME the typical GERMAN engineering has been applied.

But the real story is what VW did next, and how we might apply this knowledge to our hobby of slow speed diesel prime movers and home power generation.

When this problem became all too apparent, VW and Associates were likely in the middle of  developing the new TDI engine, this used the same block and crank as the 1.9 TD, but different heads and pistons. The engineers looked at this marginal integrated key, and the quarter moon spline on the crank nose and decided to move on to a new sprocket design, this used a ‘D’ shaped hole on the ID of the sprocket, and the same crank  was milled with a flat instead of a spline to receive this new sprocket. If I got the story right, some of the latest TDs also had this improvement applied.

But there’s more! What was the root cause of this failure? If we study Harmonic balancers, they are there to mitigate torsionals seen along the crank, flywheel and main trans shaft, whatever is causing this additional stress (remember the 1.6 TD, and the 1.6 NA applications did not have these problems, so we might assume there was less stress there) might help create some early failures in the crank shaft, or other elements tied to it.

So here’s what I find interesting, they added an over run clutch to the alternator, it’s integrated into the pulley!

What’s fascinating is the use of this Sprag clutch has found it’s way into other German cars, including some of the Porsche 911s!

So what’s happening here? maybe we allow one of Canada’s diesel motor heads to explain it in his terms..

Hi George… happy to clarify further if I can… some thoughts below:

>The one way, or sprag clutch alternator pulley is the very first I’ve

>ever heard deployed anywhere to solve a problem like this.

On the early days of their serpentine belt implementation on the AAZ engine (MK3 chassis 1993+) VW used a standard (solid) alternator pulley, meaning that the alternator is directly connected to the crankshaft drive pulley via a serpentine belt.

This engine (and its gasser cousins the ABA and VR6) unfortunately became a bit infamous for wearing out the crankshaft sprocket, key, and keyway.  It’s generally accepted that a large contributing factor to this problem was that the alternator has a small pulley and a lot of angular momentum; during deceleration it tends to want to overdrive the engine, putting large stresses on the crankshaft drive pulley (and the keyway) therein in a direction opposite to normal. Over time acceleration and deceleration results in the crankshaft sprocket rocking loose… on a diesel the result can be catastrophic.  The small pulley on the alternator exacerbates the problem (over previous designs) by increasing the alternator RPM and giving it a mechanical advantage when overdriving the larger crankshaft pulley.

At some point just before they moved to the TDI engine VW switched to a 1-way ratcheting alternator pulley (which they continued with on the TDI engine).  This pulley allows the alternator to automatically de-clutch from the drivebelt and freewheel on its own… preventing the alternator from applying reverse torque to the crankshaft pulley when the engine decelerates.

Here’s a thread with some discussion and pictures I took doing a retrofit that may help.

> “I hear it unload” I just don’t understand

> what’s unloading, can you help me understand?

With the hood up if I rev the engine and then allow it to decelerate abruptly I can hear the alternator pulley clutch disengage and the alternator spin down independent of the engine… it’s a noticeable “winding down” sound distinct from the engine, which has already nearly returned to idle.

While driving the effect is notifiable by watching the tach… the engine slows down rapidly but the tach (which is driven by the alternator) drops more slowly.

> Where can I get this pulley?

It’s a fairly standard dealer part and is also available thru some of the web-based suppliers… the part number I used is in the thread above.

> thanks for any help..

No worries… always interested in sharing information back and forth between fellow VWers !!!

Happy to discuss further if that’s helpful,

Vince

Here’s a link to give you some idea as to where this one way pulley is being deployed..

not only is this an interesting problem and fix, but it is an interesting part that we can migh use got the picture yet??

many thanks to Vince, another excellent motor head in Canada where they have a lot of fun cars we can’t have!

Now on with the story….

Among us DIYers is Brad, a mechanical engineer who’s small company of about 60 employees at it’s peak developed a lot of equipment for manufacturing. We were discussing methods to ‘clip’ the peak off our AC wave form right where the power stroke delivers it’s rather brutal peak torque. (See Bill Rogers Book for a well documented picture and explanation of this).

Brad said he had a similar problem in some industrial equipment, and he considered two solutions, one being a mechanical accumulator, the other being an over run clutch, the clutch was tried first and worked beautifully, and breakage was eliminated in the equipment completely.

At that time I look for inexpensive over run clutches I could build into the Serpentine pulley and found none cheap enough to be of interest to our ‘all too frugal’ DIYer group, but here it is!

Now for applications..

What will the application of this sprag clutch do for us to mitigate the typical ST flicker? As we think about this, we will likely consider the mass of the gen rotor, the potential to add to that mass, and also the load on the generator, all variables that might have an effect on the actual percentage above the preceding pulses we find our ‘spike’ to be. We know the human eye can recognize a rather small change in this peak voltage in typical lighting. Furthermore, the sprag clutch would not mitigate or help to normalize this pulse thru additional losses as a VEE belt and extra mass on the gen head did in the old startOmatic designed long ago by Lister At Dursley plant in UK. We might note that this was a satisfactory solution at the time because diesel fuel was far cheaper for the average Brit to buy at the time.

But there’s another application this part might lend itself to…….

While visiting Jack Belk’s place, I noted he had an old two wheel tractor that made use of a sprag clutch between starter and crank shaft. Once the engine started, the clutch free wheeled on the crank shaft.

Consider this, we take a typical cheap starter like the GM unit, we fit the sprag clutch pulley to the nose, and we then add a second pulley onto the shaft of the typical ST gen head. Certainly, there are about 300 other ways to do it that will come to mind, and if we can fit the sprag to the gen shaft, the belt or chain is no longer a parasitic load. I have used the electric clutch off a common AC automotive unit and grafted it onto the mopar starter and it spins the 6/1 ST gen set up like it was running at full speed! This sprag clutch is likely a better part for the Diyer starter.

If you look at the price the Indians want for ring gear conventional starter options, and consider the problems you have if the starter itself develops problems, the junk yard starter looks mighty attractive, especially after we DIY it with the sprag clutch pulley.

?A question?  will the sprag clutch add to the overall efficiency of a small diesel power plant? I think there’s a chance we can measure the difference in fuel/KWH figures with it’s addition >when< we deploy slow speed prime movers in generator applications.

Now all we need do is find a person who will stock a pile these sprag clutch serpentine pulleys, and ship them to us DIYers for a 10% or less mark up 🙂 Maybe we look for a Socialist or commie who’s certain that any mark up higher than 10% is hiway robbery? Got any ideas as to who we might recruit? (inside joke?).

A special thanks to Vince in Canada for his excellent ‘hands on knowledge’ and explanation, and to VW for creating both a problem and solution we could study and learn from.

Posted in Engines | 6 Comments

VW Diesel Generator

Posted on July 28, 2010 by George B.

I’ve had the pleasure to talk to a fair number of people interested in this engine. I remember when the little Diesel Rabbit first hit our shores with the 1.5 liter engine. Some of the diesel truckers thought the injectors were too small, and that they would be nothing but trouble. What we must keep in mind is that half the stuff we hear is bogus. This is a nice little engine that hums down the road, with great economy.

If you are in Canada, you have more of these around, (or so I’m told), if you are in the States, a lot of these durable little engines are in old cars, and they’re getting scraped, you might pick them up while you can. There are folks who specialize in this engine, and it appears that parts will be available for some time, with progress in providing bio fuels, and emission controls getting better for diesels, we should expect to see some new cars with diesels soon, they sure do boost the mileage over a gas engine.

Rob Stephens in Ontario is one of the first to send me a direct drive Gen based on the 1.6 N.A. VW Engine driving a two bearing generator 4 pole head. This is a good example of what a DIYer can whip up on his own, with a little labor and not too much expense. It should be obvious that running a VW Diesel at 1800 RPM is not going to produce maximum KW, but for many of us, it is all we need, and the advantages of the direct drive is worth limiting the power, and of course many of us feel this engine will last a good long time at 1800 RPMs.

This is a picture of Rob’s Home Brew drive coupler. Rob explains that it allows for considerable miss alignment, but as we know, the better the alignment, the more efficient and long lasting. I would think the ‘off the shelf’ jaw couplers could be easily adapted.

Rob has some good data on fuel versus KW, and we have discussed making this available to reader here. Rob is also going to take some close up pictures of his home made coupling, and we’ll get it on here too!

Below are two favorite Excellent VW diesel sites.

http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/index.shtml#TechInfo

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/

Posted in Generators | 1 Comment

Wayne’s PTO

Posted on July 27, 2010 by George B.

There’s a number of small tractors that have arrangements to drive something off the front. Wayne has taken advantage of the higher RPM of his PTO to engineer a simple and cost effective solution. Instead of speeding up the PTO speed, Wayne’s problem was slowing it down to provide the required 1800 RPMs. This allowed him to use a rather large pulley right out of the Grainger catalog and a single vee belt.

Wayne can tell the story best, so here’s some cut a paste from his emails. Do note that metric bushings are available right off the shelf for this pulley. Grainger might stock same, Applied Industrial does for sure.

Hi George,

I am going to send you some photos on separate emails so I am sure that you receive them. My generator project is almost complete except for the voltage control that we discussed. The tractor that you will see in the photos is a 22 HP diesel. The power take off pulley in the front of the tractor runs approximately 4500 RPM. I had to use a rather large pulley on the generator to obtain 1800 RPM. I got the pulley from Grainger and the Grainger stock number is 2L292. The bushing for the pulley is a 1 5/8″ ID bushing and the stock number is 2L250. I had to have it machined out to accommodate the 42mm shaft on the generator. The bushing had a 3/8 keyway so I just machined 1/2 of the key to fit the keyway. The rest of the project is rather straight forward. The electrical box mounted on the frame is an outdoor box with breakers installed for both the 120 V and 220 Volt outlets. I put 2 120 outlets on one side of the winding and 2 outlets on the other side in order to divide the load. I will mostly use the 220 outlet because that matches my input to the house.

When we started it up it worked without a hitch. In fact, my wife was watching TV with all of the lights on in the living room. The furnace blower was running and all of the lights were on in the basement. I started the generator and went in the house and threw the transfer switch and my wife didn’t even know that anything happened because the TV didn’t even flicker.

All of the equipment for this tractor (including the generator now) attaches in about 30 seconds. You just drive into the equipment and it snaps in place. Then you attach the belt and you are ready to go. I didn’t show you in the photos but the generator assembly raises up, by hydraulic,about 12 inches for transporting.

The bottom line is that the generator worked perfectly.

Thanks again for all of your help. If you want to use any of this material feel free to do so.

Wayne Thomas

PS. You may want to look at our web site www.thomastreefarm.com

Thank you for sharing your project with us, Wayne!  After seeing your work, I remember a Bolens tractor I had where you could take power off in the same way. I think your set up would have worked well on that little tractor too. Your project will spark ideas for other readers, and I learned something new too.

Posted in Generators | Leave a comment

Well Water Tanks

Posted on July 27, 2010 by George B.

I’d like to know, what is the failure rate of captive air tanks compared to the older traditional tanks?

I was at Easton for a few days in an attempt to reconfigure my water system to a more permanent setup. Part of  the work was to move an 80 Gallon pressurized tank from the shed near the cabin to the new Well house about 400 feet away. The well house is powered by a 6/1 generator, and it’s floor is about 4 feet into the ground, the hope is the well insulated and earth protected building will not freeze in the winter, I guess we’ll know soon enough.

THE GEARS STARTED TURNING WHEN I WENT TO MOVE THE TANK.

First thing I did was make sure the bottom valve was all the way open, and empty of water, then I went to load it into a light trailer for the trip behind the ATV to the new Well house. Yikes, it’s heavy! first thing I checked was for air pressure on the air side of the bladder, seemed to have plenty, but I shook the tank, and it was at least half way full of water!

I tipped it over on its side and looked at the bottom, there was a bolt circle on the bottom maybe eight inches in diameter, I loosened the bolts, and after slacking off about three, there was a blast of putrid, foul smelling water that started spraying everywhere, I backed up, and let it spray, it was muddy looking, almost jet black, lots of solids, and finally it seemed to ‘heal’ itself. I decided to slacken off the bolts more, and it blew again, and sprayed more of the same foul smelling stuff. After backing off the bolts about four different times, pressure fell to zero and I was able to take off the bottom flange and inspect the bladder. As you might imagine, all looked just fine, I was able to stick the hose inside the tank and flush out a lot of ugly stuff. I did a pretty good job of flushing it all out, and then added some bleach water, at this point, I was experimenting, and attempting to get the tank operational for the rest of my stay as I processed what was going on, and what I’d do for a permanent remedy. I put the tank back together and charged the bladder to 50 PSI, if there’s a leak, it’s small indeed, I guess I need measure it next visit to know more.

As I thought about this, and my fondness for pressurized tanks, my mind darted back to an incident at Cowiche, another off grid piece of property we own in the Cowiche Mountains, There was a time when I returned to the cabin and opened the faucet in the utility sink near the shower, out came a green soup that actually fizzed like an effervescent soda drink! I ran some out into a plastic wash tub and it reminded me of some science project. The smell was memorable indeed. Thankfully, we only use this water for showering, but we do wash dishes with it after running it through a propane heater. Since I had a gallon of bleach, I poured about 50 times more than necessary in with the spring water in the 55 gallon barrels and recharged the tank AFTER purging it. What is note worthy is it happened again about two months latter.

Now what I’m about to say is all theory, I’m no water expert, I never attended a single class on water wells, and I certainly don’t have a certificate from the health department certifying me as anything. At most, I’m only a consumer of water, and I mostly like mine as fresh as possible. But unlike normal folks, I have the DIYer bug, you got it too or you wouldn’t have read this far.

I said I like pressurized tanks, I guess I better tell you why. A tank with a bladder inside can be charged with air and acts as an accumulator, (an active element) in your water supply, when properly installed and sized, it can significantly decrease the number of starts and stops of your pump, and in single phase pumps (most of what we home owners have) the number of starts is directly related to how long the pump usually lives. Running a pump is not as hard on the pump as starting it.

What you could enjoy researching is how tanks worked prior to the bladder tank, to give you the short of it, there was a method to inject some air every time the pump cycled, this is necessary because air will dissolve into water, and sooner or later the air space would be gone!  The air is what drives the water out of the tank when you go for a glass of water, also note that water doesn’t compress worth a darn, so bad things would happen without the air space. The pump doesn’t need to run with modest draw downs once the pumps shuts off. The bladder tank WILL allow you to use twice the volume of water BEFORE the pump starts as the earlier water tanks of equal size, and some suggest an even bigger advantage. In theory this could double the life of your expensive electric pump. There’s another notable benefit, when the power goes out, you have more water in storage that will flow from the faucet before you need power again. If you can keep from flushing the toilet on yellow AND you use the water for the most important requirements like drinking and cooking, you might weather your outage in reasonable comfort.

The CONS ?

Here’s close to reality on how this tank works, and close to what the directions say.. there’s an air filler on the tank same as your car tire, use an air pump to pre charge, use a tire pressure gauge to measure the pressure. There’s usually some literature with your tank and to what he pre charge should be and how it relates to the cut in and cut out settings of your tank. Here’s a page from a leading tank manufacturer.  I don’t know if their tanks are good, better, or best.

If you study the pre charge, and you study the range of pressures the water side can operate between, what happens if there’s a small hole in the bladder? The closer we maintain the two pressures (bladder and water pressure) the less likely it will be that any real volume of water and/or water+?pathogens? flow. But lets look at the pressure right before the pump turns on, it could set at this pressures for hours or days depending on use, the bladder side may be at a higher pressure and if there was a hole in the bladder, the ‘soup’ could flow into the drinking water and contaminate it. When the pump does come on, it will likely run the water side to a greater pressure, and the water from that side could flow back to the air side and provide a continuous water supply to the ‘soup and pathogens’ manufacturing line.

I have not researched the offerings in pressurized tanks, but having some telltale when there is water detected on the air bladder side might be a great selling point. If it were a feature, I’d likely buy it!

Now if we look at Cowiche, and the ‘worst case’, I likely ran that tank down to about zero pressure. If there was 20 gallons of soupy water and bugs on the bladder side, it might charge the water side with that ugly stuff until the pressure equalizes. When I walk into the cabin, there it is again! that ugly smelly water EVEN though I shocked the tank with chlorine. Is the bladder leaking at Cowiche too?

So here I am wondering what to do for Easton, do I risk buying another expensive bladder tank?

Now we add one more piece of information, I call a friend who just had a well put it, his water man said he doesn’t install the pressurized tanks anymore because of the call back rate, he says he seldom gets called back on a job where he installed the older tanks with the air injectors. Is this a customer education issue, or a high failure rate of the captive air tanks? There are tanks with a five year warranty.

Here is an email from Phil P., a first class DIyer

George,

Having been on wells for over 32 years I can give an honest opinion on water storage tanks. I have never had a bladder tank nor will I ever have one.

My friends and neighbors all have them and I can’t remember even one of them that has not had a problem with a bladder tank. Some last only a couple of years before they rupture, (stinky water and waterlogged tank, constant pump cycling).

I have a steel glass lined tank with an air valve (40 gal.) Works great although the air valve needs to be replaced every 10 – 12 years depending on your water quality. I have hard water and they eventually lime up and the valve doesn’t seat properly.

Also with my system are two bleeder valves in the water line ( submersible pump ) where the horizontal pressure water line turns down into the well casing. They are about 30″ apart and they bleed off any pressure after the pump shuts off ( they are in the vertical line in the casing )

Their purpose is to bleed off pressure so the pump does not start under pressure next time it runs, check valve located just above them to retain tank pressure. They also admit air into the line as the water drains out between the two bleeder valves.

New air valves are about $18 at the local farm stores.

Another home we used to own had a well with a shallow well jet pump, the literature for the pump and tank was in the basement when we bought the home – dated 1947, wards jet pump and tank. We sold that home when we built our new one in 1994 and that pump and galvanized tank were still in service although I did do some repairs.

It did not have a air valve but it did have a schrader valve on the tank to charge it with air or you could just drain the tank and “starterup” again – did the same thing as pumping in air only easier.
Needed draining or air pumped into tank about every 2-3 months.
That’s my opinion on water storage tanks – no bladder tanks period.

Phil

Some thoughts, and I hope more feedback can be used to determine how prevalent failures are in these thanks.

Captive Air Tanks offer some real advantages when you have a single phase pump, far less pump cycling, and the fact that hard water is stored in a bladder and does not touch metal is very appealing to me. It may be a wise move to research the better bladder design, and to install a “quick check” system for detecting faults with the bladder. Understanding the bladder and how long you can go before detecting a problem gives me some thoughts. Improper Air Charge and other faults could cost you your pump or other troubles.

Installing a cheap indicator lamp off the pump controller so you can see when the pump is running sounds like a necessity, This might even be something you can monitor from a typical ‘point of use’, a small red indicator light on any time to pump is running. When it starts ‘short cycling’ you’d have a way of knowing.

I think we consider making use of that lifting eye in the top of the tank, once a year or more often, we turn off the pump, and completely empty the tank, we design a place to attach a simple balance scale between the ceiling and the tank, we could even make a crude balance and leave it in place. With flexible black plastic or similar to the tank, we could know the weight empty, and we would quickly discover when we had a few gallons (or more) of water on the air side of the bladder, this could give us plenty of time to replace the tank BEFORE we compromise our pump or other problems develop. Knowing the weight of the tank new is key.  I think problems at summer homes or places where water systems are unused for months at a time could really benefit from a drain down of the water tank, and a quick measure of the weight of the tank. I can see a tank set up with a permanent balance scale, when the tank is drained, you see the tank 1/2 inch off the floor.

well water tanks

Above, a simple balance and weight installed permanently to monitor for faults in bladder tanks this could be made out of a piece of pipe, a few holes drilled, and some chain.

More research, I looked at a captive air tank being tossed out at Easton, there was no way to replace the bladder, so you just toss the tank. My tank is a Flotec I believe, and the liner IS replaceable, what we are all certain of is that the liner will be expensive! regardless of what they cost to make, the general rule is they price the liner just low enough for you to compare the cost of a whole new tank against the cost of a new liner, I will call for a price during the week, no service on Saturdays.

One thing we know, if that’s bear steel on the air side. we need clean it and seal it up before we install a new liner, it’s possible that linseed oil might work, possibly better is a zinc rich paint with high solids.

For those who want to start a submersible pump off a generator, what considerations should we give to our design WHEN we put it in?  If we have a fairly deep well, and a low static level, is there any consideration to allow this tall column of water to ‘bleed off’, and what effect will it have on the current to start the pump, and the duration of that high current as the pump starts?

Suggested reading from friends of Utterpower:

This article above points out that the captive air tank stores the water in the bladder where it never touches metal, this sounds like a big advantage when you have hard water.

Information on iron and manganese in drinking water.

Here is on on bacterial sludge.

One on Iron Sulfer Bacteria.

This one has a lot of good condensed advice!

And finally, one about Interesting Pumps.

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What is a Weasel Fart?

Posted on July 27, 2010 by George B.

That question was asked of me last Saturday, and I just didn’t have a clue. I thought there might be others out there in the world struggling to find the definition, and that’s the purpose of this page, “To share my new found knowledge.”

During the Summer and warmer months, it’s easier to find strong thermals that can lift a glider higher. As the late fall and winter months arrive, the lower sun angle heats the ground and air to a lesser extent, and there is less thermal activity.

This is a time when Soaring Birds and those who wish to soar with them learn to make use of the ‘weasel fart’.

A weasel fart is a small and light thermal that is far more difficult to ‘sniff out’ or recognize. The larger thermals with their rough edges are easily recognized by bird and man.  Sometimes they are rough enough where gliders bounce off, they sometimes  make a 270 degree turn to enter the thermal ‘straight on’ in an attempt to ride the thermal higher.

Could it be that Mountain Ravens know the Weasel Farts best? They often winter over in their Mountain Retreats and they rely on covering a lot of ground to find food each day. They know when the Sun reaches a certain point in the sky that the Weasel Farts are there to ‘sniff out’ and by working them carefully they might gain enough elevation to make their winter rounds with far less work.  All Ravens know that when the Sun is sinking in the afternoon sky; it’s best to be close to home.  If you’re not, it may be a long ‘flap’ back to the roost.

Thanks to Mark Chirico at Seattle Paragliding for adding another new phrase to my rather limited vocabulary. Chalk Talk is a fun place to spend a Saturday morning.

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