Here’s an email I received this AM that might be of interest to other Lister Type CS owners
Hi George
Listeroid mfg by Fieldmarshal mod: PMV 6hp w/bore 4.498″ with a (cheap caliper). There is no hour meter, best guess ~800 trouble free hours. In most cold weather (lo 30’s) it takes 2-4 extra compression strokes to start it. Last week temp was in the mid to upper teens and no amount of cranking would get a start. In the past
I’ve used a burning propane torch over the intake and the engine will start immediately. Last week the torch was placed over the intake and engine fired. A plastic ring between the air filter halves softened due to flame and was sucked into to intake. The intake valve closed on it effectively gluing it to the seat. I was able to get most of it scraped off with 12Ga wire thru the intake port but not enough to gain adequate compression. So — off with it’s head!
A head gasket will get it going. Additional spares will hopefully cover the next break down or overhaul. I need to come up with a better way of heating the intake air. My Dodge w/Cummins uses a 12v electric element to heat the intake air. That should work well on any Diesel including the listeroid.
Ken
My comments Below
Ken,
The CS types start a little harder in cold weather when we compare them to DI variants, but there are ways to get first compression stroke starts. Some years back, Utterpower fitted the stock Indian style CS plug with a glow plug, we were careful to recess the plug and experiment with the amount of plug reveal, and the length of the plug. We quickly adopted the VW glow plug found in the 1.6 VW diesel and others. Not long after that, someone in UK, and a seller on the East Coast started supplying similar modified plugs. Some thought it an improvement to use a very long plug, so they could mount the glow plug flush to the end where we choose to recess our shorter VW plug protecting it, and we enjoyed removing slightly less material as seen by the combustion chamber.
I have a supply of the stock plugs and the copper washers, if you have a lathe, it’s fairly easy to make your own. Some people will consider the CS change over valve but I think you need to know that India got rid of the change over valve because most of them developed leaks sooner or later. Some will tell you the CS plug was a very welcome change. There’s another surprise for folks fitting the CS change over valve to replace the plug. Some have found that they achieve the proper run compression with the valve screwed all the way in, and when screwed out (typically the run position) they have too little compression. It may pay dividends to talk to others who have installed change over valves in your specific engine if you are considering this change. At present, I’d suggest that the person who encourages you to fit a COV is the man who has less hands on running experience, they do leak sooner or later. The glow plug modification does an excellent job of starting cold engines.
As for the intake heaters, these engines do respond to them, but… we have a significant chunk of cast iron here, and it is rather amazing how the inlet and head can soak up the majority of this heat, especially with below freezing coolant nearby. The glow plug on the other hand is bright red, and when that fuel mist under compression hits it, there’s normally ignition the first time unless you have an especially whimpy arm. We need mention that thermostat. Yes, there are people who post on forums that thermostats are not proper in a CS. Here’s an example where you’ll see the merit. With the thermostat closed you are heating the head and cylinder, and bringing up the coolant temp, without it, you can’t raise the temperature and you are creating yourself a lot of trouble long term. It’s also wise to note the advantage of putting a little load on the engine, we know that we do not produce heat unless we are burning some fuel, and an idling engine may never get ahead of the cold weather. Among a laundry list of other problems, this cool condition burns a lot of fuel, and creates excessive wear.
Mac McQuaid in Montana (read cold) first built a ‘gasoline pony motor’ to start his 6/1, but when he got around to installing the glow plug, that motor had no reason to run.
As for intakes, anyone that runs a lot of hours should consider a different intake setup, the intake inlet should be pointing downward, gravity should be helping you in the prevention of ingesting small parts, and of course this also helps keep condensation from building up near the valve and seat. I like the idea of using a generous sized hose like that on a shop vac. My preferred intake filter is the area between the studs in a generator house filled with fiber glass insulation. The hose near the inside bottom of the wall, the inlet nearest the top, and outside of course. Don’t like the idea of fiber glass? Add a filter media of your choice at or near the wall to act as a final filter. This set up makes for a quiet intake.. Remember, oil bath filters are outdated and provide poor filtration in an entire spectrum of particle size, toss them, or sell your to a man who only runs his engine at a show.
Some years back Martin D, one of our older and more experienced DIYers started building his own GEN SET in Sierra Vista, AZ which lies about 70 miles from Tuson. At the Time Martin made his purchase, Changfa was delivering some fairly good stuff, complaints were low, any failures were normally attributed to operator error. Martin also has one of the heavier ST heads if I remember correctly. He fabricated a heavy eye beam frame, installed the drive coupler, cooling system and more. I’d be very surprised if you didn’t find his fab work top notch, he’s ran the engine for five minutes or less, but his health has not allowed him to do more.
There’s several reasons I post this, one… Martin is one of our more senior members, and even with his health slipping, he took on a project that non diyers are intimidated by, he’s squeezed a lot of living into his years and I admire him. Martin has decided it’s time to sell this equipment. This is your chance to help out a very humble and likable member of our community who needs to lighten up his toy box. In return, you might avoid a costly shipping bill for some real heavy stuff… ‘good as new’…
Martin does have a lap top and will likely answer your email try mart (at) powerc.net
I have a Changfa engine 1110 engine running a ST generator head , In the last few weeks I have replaced my pulley on the gen head and engine with high quality pulleys , at the same time I changed the ratios and my engine is running at a lower rpm for engine longevity , the engine now runs at 1750 rpm about when my gen set is at 1500 rpm . My question is would this affect the engine governor and cause it to be lazy because the governor spring might be to strong now that the engine is running at a slower rpm , we use the generator to pump water when we go of line which in zim is every day , now on start up of the pump the voltage dips about 40 volts from the set volt age of 400 on the 3 phase to a voltage of 360 . This voltage is acceptable to the pump tolerances of 10 % increase or decrease , I am only concerned that the engine now takes time to reach the set speed because the governor is slow to react and that when the load is taken off and the generator now is running at a lighter load the engine is increasing in speed and then decreasing in speed in a slow noticeable cycle , until we start the pump again to fill the water bowsers . this is a cycle that is done about twenty times a day , as we fill bowsers during the work day .
How would I be able to adjust the governor or replace a spring that will give me a bettor response to the engine. When we use the gen to power the homestead and there is no switching on or off of pumps and the load stays constant and the engine runs very smoothly and there is no change in rpm of the engine.
Other than this , these engines and generator heads are in my opinion indestructible and considering the cost of what I paid , I will not hesitate to buy again , they are easy to maintain and fix in any situation and I have never gone without power because some electronic part has failed .
George’s Reply:
Hannes, always good to hear from Zim! You email addresses a classic concern. I have written pages on the topic that are likely search able with ‘Utterpower governor’.
The 1110 is a fairly standard Asian workhorse, Changfa is a better built engine from experience, but friend warns me that counterfeiting the name or brand is a common thing on the mainland! Quality ranges from very good to JUNK. Some manufactures make them to sell, some make them to use, and to this point, the Changfa company appears to make better stuff. There are a lot of things that can be left out of this design, oil pressure relief valves, bushings on the counter shaft and main shafts VS roller/ball bearings, plastic parts that quickly fail VS the traditional and more costly metal parts. Another concern I have seen is assembly by the unskilled, heads not surface ground properly, water leaks developing in the head gasket area. A quick inspection, and then improving this surface with wet or dry paper on a dead flat surface is a good precaution and eliminates a common cause of failures in the bush. Another thing to watch on these engines is the single bolt that fastens the valve cover, when not properly torqued, these come loose, the lube oil leaks out till the engine destroys itself. It’s not so much about the design, it’s knowing what you need to look for and knowing it was built right and addressing the small and important stuff like checking rocker arm alignment, and assuring you properly torque down the single stud on the valve cover! Some engines have two studs, a much better idea.
Same goes for the ST, they are anything from reliable to junk, and there lies the problem.
Back to your Governor Issue
If we look at the typical governor, it’s little more than a tug of war contest between a fly weight and the spring, but in this case we have a throttle rack right in the middle that gets drug back and forth until equilibrium is reached (load dependent).
When we choose to run at a low ‘set speed’ we handicap the flyweights as they can no longer develop the same ‘tugging force’. In order for the contest to be fair, we must also handicap the spring. This is best done by fitting a weaker spring and studying the voltage droop or RPM drop when your load is placed across the Generator. try a selction of weaker springs and increase tension till you get the best results.
After studying the Bush generator for years and the typical failures, I think it is wise to invest your time in tuning the governor to maintain speed best it can and then address voltage droop, your goal is to provide acceptable droop, not to provide a voltage to the nearest decimal point. If you can do this without a voltage regulator, you have a better situation in small bush power generation because many if not most of the voltage regulators in this class of generator are poorly implemented and misunderstood by the generator operator. One thing for certain, bush generators only fail when you need them most.
As I often say, opinions vary. When you analyze an opinion, attempt to quantify the amount of hands on experience of the Author. I love some of the posts I see on DIYer forums. “I just opened the crate this morning , and I can tell you this generator is a masterpiece of engineering! I called the manufacturer this AM and ordered 100 more and I’ll be selling them, send me an email and let me know how many you want”.
Sad to say but the game has now become far more complicated. We now live in a world of uncertainty, what you ordered last month may have no resemblance to what you receive next order. What counts is the track record of your supplier and his Warranty.
Oh yes… you knew I couldn’t stay on topic, but you’ve come to expect that haven’t you ??
Electrical Engineer, Motor Head, and he’s one of us! Yes, Bill also likes to DIY, you can switch from subjects like reactive loads, to sun gears, motorcycles, fuel injection, and more, Bill’s either right with you, or a step ahead.
UPDATE 020207! Bill Roger’s the BOOK is reality, see “Books on this site”.
As I may have said elsewhere, Forrest Mims is one of my favorite Technical Writers. An example of his talent is a little book he wrote for Radio shack. The title was ‘Understanding Digital Computers, and between the covers was his Microprocessor called the ‘PIP’, a 4 bit ‘nibbler’ designed to teach you exactly how a microprocessor does what it does at the machine level. Forrest writes in a way where you feel the knowledge is being poured into your head. How does he do this? He writes to convey information, and not to impress his peers as all too many Technical Writers do. He also has a double helping of passion for teaching and for the subject itself, without these passions, he could have never have done it so well!
Bill Rogers is another EE with passion for a subject, he too understands that there is a difference between ‘teaching’ and demonstrating that you have knowledge of a subject. Bill is old enough and wise enough to know the difference. he also recognizes that there are some DIYer Farm Boys out there that never went to college but have a double helping of good skills, and common sense, and some that have taken the time to learn the basics of AC power. You can see the difference in their projects, their approach, and the questions they ask.
Thirty five Years ago, I sat in an AC theory class; I loved it, but after getting into a JOB where battery and ground, Zeros and Ones were nearly everything, I quickly lost these skills. Yes, I have read and studied some since, but I found Bill’s book was the refresher I needed, and it’s all in one concise little book about 127 pages long. It took far less effort to understand, and it reminds me of having the knowledge ‘poured in’ versus the struggle to learn. NO, you can’t just doze off in the chair with the book, you do need to use your brain, and think about what you are reading, but it’s a joy to learn as Bill presents it. As of this date I go thru my disorganized web pages and find a number of terms that are just a little bit off.. I’ve used KW, where KVA would be more appropriate and more, this book will really help you get back in touch with reality!
Now for the profound revelation, Bill has that same talent to write and convey information as Forrest Mimms, (One of my Heros); furthermore, Bill has tuned the information to meet the requirements of our DIYer community, and delivers it by discussing situations we may have already observed and found curious or dumbfounding. There is information in this book about building induction generators out of both single phase and three phase motors, and lots more, Bill is the first to provide the information normally missing in other books and articles that will allow these generators to run with far greater efficiency. Most of what I have read elsewhere will produce results where losses that are far too great too deploy for our requirements and many generators will fail being run in the mode as described on WEBsites and even a few books. All that is required is the application of principles Bill teaches. Some will think Bill has revealed trade secrets in this book. Common generators are covered as well, and the information about tuning your AC loads for greater efficiency where we can use less fuel to run these devices can pay huge dividends in the operation of our power plants, we can easily apply this knowledge to save money on our commercial power bills too.
There is another profound thing taught in this book, and that is what slow speed power looks like, and how the power is delivered, you will have a better understanding of slow speed than ever before, and few mechanical engineers will paint a better picture, or explain it in more detail than the many charts and graphs in this book.
Thank you Bill for putting in the effort to produce the information we need!
That’s what one who visits Utterpower’s pages suggests.
Here’s an email snippet..
“What I am trying to say is that i think that PMG only requires 1hp electric motor for every 1kw output and that should be clearly seen at the input of the VFD in the form of about approximately 1150w input for every 1kw output at the gen head, thanks troy”
More background if you need it, or simply scroll down:
hi george, i talked with you earlier about connecting your pmg to your 10 hp motor and vfd to do a comparison analysis. you said you had some test gens that were in your shop. i believe if you connect the motor to the gen with a lovejoy coupling and wire it 240vac output and connect purely resistive lights to it at 3kw load it will read 240vac at 12.5 amps to the load from the gen output. with a two pole electric induction motor and a vfd that is converting single phase to three phase there should be about a 10% increase in input at the vfd to the out put of the gen head. you should see about 14-15 amps at 240vac single phase to the vfd and 12.5 amps on the output to the load. now in the field they say 2hp per 1kw which would mean 6hp for 3kw. however 6hp on that 10hp motor and vfd will be about 25-27 amps at 240vac on the single phase vfd input coming from the panel box to the vfd. I want to prove point to the gearheads in my area that your drive, motor(prime mover), and gen head at 3 kw output will only consume around 3.4kw from the panel box to produce 3kw at the gen head. if it takes 2hp then thats around 2.2kw from the panel box and so that gen would only be at most 50% efficient and i think it is higher than that. with the vfd losses of 1%, motor of around 5%, and gen around 5%, the input single phase should only be 10-15% higher than the output at the gen head. bottom line i want to couple that gen head to an electric motor and vfd and strap a 3kw load to it and test the input kw to the vfd. i bet if done correctly 3kw out of the gen only requires 3.4kw input, not 6-6.4kw. i can buy one from you test it and see or pay you to test it for me, i probably won’t use the gen after that i just to test that theory and answer for myself. my phone is 803-xxx-xxxx when you figure what you want to do please give me a call.
thanks troy
My response:
OK, so let me give this a shot, we are going to post this at Utterpower because there are other people who believe in similar stuff.
horsepower is horsepower period, it matters not what makes it, it is simply RPM times torque, matters not if a mule makes it or an electric motor.
We know that one inch of copper wire has a loss, so when we put electrical energy into one end, we expect less out the other end period.
So in your case… you believe we can add a variable frequency drive, followed by an electric motor (with known losses), a drive coupler and then the PMG and effectively double the efficiency over the rule of thumb, 2HP=1KW?
In stead of offering to pay me to set this up on the test bench and prove your theory, why not spend an hour thinking or learning?
If what you say is real, then a lot of really smart people are ignoring a real simple way of addign efficiency.. Imagine, engineers have been struggling to produce fractional gains in efficiency for years, and you’re going to approximately double it?
Now I do agree that about 30% of Americans think the same way you do. There’s little difference between ‘life’s energy’ and other forms of energy. We seem to have a bumper crop of people who would vote for a minimum wage of let’s say $95 and hour. This would create a lot of income and then we could tax the hell out of them and have enough money for every government program. Patty Murray, Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi are in this camp.
Just a few minutes of ‘critical thinking’ make it all clear, if anything was clear to start with.. wait a minute! even critical thought is not helping right now….
This is a happy day… Please see my previous post BELOW…Vivian got her Walking papers today, but if things turn out the way they should Vivian might be remembered as the person who helped convince America that NPR was not worthy of taxpayer support.
What we are likely to see from the left is a campaign to convince you that Sessame Street will go off the air without taxpayer support, in reality, it makes millions off the endorsement of toys alone.
Let’s keep the pressure on elected officials to trim our Budget, NPR is a great place to start!
—————————————-
This year is full of Contenders for “Dumb Ass Of the Year”… I haven’t seen, nor will I see Jack Ass Three 3D, but here’s a movie where you are likely to find the same caliber of thoughtlessness as Schiller displayed this week. Maybe the producers of Jackass will offer her a spot in Jackass four 3D driving NPR off a cliff while talking on a cell phone to CAIR?
Vivian, you deserved your own page here, I’m sure you will have a lot of them soon and certainly more visible ones.
NPR, what a liability you carry! Do yourself a favor, and Dump this stupid Coward.
Vivian… I don’t think it is any less disrepectful telling you that I wouldn’t piss down your throat if your guts were on fire than what you did to Juan Williams.
There is a lot of mystery surrounding how Rajkot and their slow speed engine market is stitched together. I believe there are people who visit there and leave with little additional understanding of how it all works and what causes the industry to ignore Quality issues year after year.
The people you talk to are generally office workers and they will not understand technical questions, nor will they typically have influence over which flywheel gets fitted to the engine you ordered.
The flywheel above was received by a retired Mechanical Engineer, one who is facinated by flywheel inertia, integrity issues, and all mechanical topics that surround flywheels. We’ll call our engineer John, just to give him a name, and I’ll explain how John came to dig the filler out of this flywheel.
John is in his seventies, retired, and of course afflicted with that engineering desease that cause Mothers to cry when they first learn of the diagnosis. While other kids are at play, Johnny sits quietly on the sidewalk curb staring at a bridge girder visualizing how the load is distributed.
Of course.. a mechanical engineer can not be trusted to take much of anything at face value, and more often than not, they even read liteture that came with their new toaster.
So… why did John start digging a prodding? Why did he question the integrity of this flywheel? He started with the ‘RING TEST’ lightly strike the flywheel with a hammer and listen to the sound, a clear ring is a good thing, a dull sound or a ‘thud’ is a bad sign, and it should cause you to question the flywheel’s integrity. This is exactly what John found, “a ring and a thud”.
The question for you… would you line up your family members in front of this flywheel and run it at full rated speed? Note, this is not the only flaw found..
As for the filler they use, it’s possible it’s the same stuff they make molds out of with a binder of some type added. I doubt it’s applied to add integrity to the wheel, and it’s purpose is likely to hide the defects and provide cosmetic appeal.
Some who read this have the opinion that all things made in Rajkot find a home. There are grades of parts and most of the time the very best are boxed as spares. The poorest parts are often fitted to engines for markets where they can barely afford any effort made by India to erect an engine. Managers rationalize sending off poor quality and even unsafe parts as they say “these customers can not afford a better effort”.
I leave you to sort out the truth of the matter, but here is one example of a premium assembly ordered, premium price paid, and a flywheel I’d have expected to be exported from India to Pakisthan ending up here in North America.
Are you an engineer or in the market for a lister type? Your comments will be helpful.
Added Note: Is it time to review this post, what is it we can learn? look at the comments, do a google search on this topic and see who all has joined in on the conversation..I am proud to be a skeptic…
Rifles, Ballistics, firearms in general.. we DIYers are fascinated by the science that surrounds them. Copper units of pressure, stabilizing a bullet in flight and far more. There’s so much to learn from firearms.
Come this Wednesday night one of our own picks on Remington over a trigger assembly he’s found fault with for years. Will Remington steam roller Jack in Court, or will Jack successfully prove that the Remington 700 trigger has a design problem?
Now I know my first thought was I would never want to be used by the anti gun lobby, and therefore I’d never get close to a case like this IF I were a gun smith of some acclaim.
The question becomes, if there is a safety issue, how does it ever get fixed? Would the average Gun Smith blame every accidental miss fire on the person handling the rifle? For those of us who know Jack, we know his thinking… “no firearm should discharge unless you pull the trigger”, there’s plenty of evidence that there have been trigger and safety designs that do just that every time, the firearm doesn’t fire unless you pull the trigger.
You might remember that Jack wrote a good article about his experience living at Magic Hot Springs with a Listgen 6/1 ST5. He laid out the case for small power, and how living at Magic Hot Springs would break most banks prior to installing the 6/1.
Here’s an overview of the trigger assembly, I’m no gun smith, so do assume I am only curious about this case. I wouldn’t dare trust a trigger I adjusted.. yet alone attempt to tell you what a safe design looks like. As I read the following, I think about trouble shooting in general. If you are as old as I am.. you know you must understand how something works before you can fix it. In this case, I think we need understand this trigger assembly and how it works before we attempt to form an opinion one way or the other. scroll down for another article added, comments made about this page at the far bottom.
This paper is published as a public service aimed primarily at gunsmiths and advanced amateur gun enthusiasts that have a curiosity about the fascinating mechanics involved in modern firearms and are willing to look at very easy facts and features and figure out how it works. Remington-Walker triggers are more complicated than pliers, but not by much. Much of their mystery remains because the design is so like others in appearance, but totally different in operation.
The author has a life-long love affair and intense interest in what makes guns do what they do and how to make them do it better by design instead of blind luck. For the past seventeen years, much of the gun study has been as a result of law suits involving firearms and their design. It has been an enlightening experience that needs to be talked about. I’m in no way picking on Remington, but they’re in the spot light right now and actual facts are hard to come by on this subject. I’ve testified as an expert in Federal and other courts in civil and criminal matters in several states. My testimony has never been disallowed.
There is a difference between studying design and function by taking things apart and comparing what is seen by a parts diagram and testifying to how the gun operates to a great degree of mechanical certainty. When testifying of how something happens, certainty is essential. The rule of ‘follow the forces’ in gunsmithing is a good one. Once forces and pivots are seen and understood, the entire trigger is no longer a mystery. Just because it looks like any other trigger is no cause to think it operates like any other. It does not.
Attacks on the author by those that have not read this paper while actually examining a Remington-Walker trigger and the patent language pertaining to it will be happily ignored. Facts are facts and I’m trying to explain how to actually see those facts so you can come to your own conclusions based on mechanical knowledge instead of what was heard or said somewhere.
Questions on this paper are gladly answered but preferably in the public forum. The purpose is, after all, the education of a subject out of normal vision and experience of the shooter. If you want to talk politics or personal appearance or what you think of me or something else, please move it to another thread. This discussion is about one particular family of triggers that are present on more than seven million rifles spread all over the world.
Remington-Walker-Haskell trigger—
Please reference U.S.Pat. 2,514,981 That’s the trigger we’re talking about and it’s different than all others. There are pdf download patents available without charge several places on the internet.
To fully understand the operations and failures of the Remington-Walker trigger, the drawings and the text of the patent are MOST important. Print it out, if possible, for ready reference. It is the heart of the Remington ‘problem’ in 600 and 700 series triggers. This applies to all models but the M-788 which has a one piece trigger design in it.
The patent drawings are probably different than the trigger you see in your rifle. Over the decades many changes have been made to the various parts. I’ll explain the differences and what effect they have on operation and safety, later, but here’s a rough test to see which ‘generation’ trigger is in your rifle.
Remove the bolt and look down in the rear tang at the sear. If there is a stack of four parts, the outer housing and the two sears, it’s an early gun and should be treated with special care. The more modern sears are chromed sintered metal and of one piece.
The second test is to see if it has a bolt lock safety. Does the bolt open easily with safety ON? If so it was made after 1982. If you have a bolt lock gun, cut the lug off so it’s defeated. Just grind off #32 Fig 1 of the patent.
If the face of your trigger is smooth without the ridges commonly found on the face of triggers, it is a new X-MarkPro trigger that has a solid trigger and no connector. It was made after October of 2006. I have closely examined several X-Mark Pro triggers and their prototypes. It is as good as any trigger on the market and better than many. It’s just 60 years late.
With those comments I’ll dive into a subject I extensively covered on this site and others ten years ago.
The fact that the plane you’re flying in has not crashed is no evidence that crashes don’t occur.
That pretty well sums up anecdotal evidence. Just because your rifle’s trigger has never, ever done anything but what you directed it to do is no evidence of the lack of a defect. The defect is there and it’s unpredictable and many times it won’t repeat no matter what you do. The scientific method depends on masses of information when the occurrence is rare and non-repeatable. There are thousands of people that have written letters of complaints that describe the exact same failures time after time. The defect is in the trigger and just because it works now does not mean it won’t fail in the future.
Basics–
The Remington-Walker trigger is an “Over-ride” trigger system. That means it’s not a “Direct-acting” trigger that pulls the sear out of position with the cocking piece (like M-98, 03, etc). An over-ride trigger props up the sear and is not attached to it. Winchester started the over-ride, or ‘negative angle’ trigger in hunting rifles in the M-70 in 1937. Sako made an override trigger contained in a housing that was then fastened to the action. Many custom trigger makers copied it just after the War. Timney, Dayton-Traister, Canjar, Jewel, Ruger M77, A-bolts, Tikka – just name a modern bolt action rifle and it’ll have an over-ride trigger in it. They are crisp and allow very good trigger pulls. They are the ‘standard’ in modern bolt action rifles.
The Remington-Walker is different than all those others and patent #2,514,981 tells us why that is.
Figure 1 of the patent shows a jumble parts that usually makes people slightly ill to try to cipher it out. Here’s a better representation with the parts labeled in common language and direction of movements given to hopefully, though crudely, better ‘see’ what’s inside.
trigger assembly
Notice the area inside the red circle. When the bolt closes, the cocking piece pushes the rear of the sear downward so that the sear rests on the rear corner of the connector. That overlap is the ‘sear engagement’. Its usually .018 to .025 inches which means the rifle is prevented from firing by about .004 square inch of steel, at most. In this position, the cocking piece is held by the sear, which is pressing down on the top of the trigger-connector. When the trigger moves forward the sear falls and the firing pin rushes forward to fire the rifle.
The safety cam lifts the sear off the top of the trigger-connector and locks the sear into the cocking piece so the gun can’t fire, but the trigger and connector are free to move. When the safety is rotated to OFF, the sear comes back down on the trigger-connector. This is a simple ‘Sako-style’, modular, over-ride trigger. The fact that the sear is hinged at the front instead of the back makes no practical difference. It can be seen by this simple motion of the safety and sear that the trigger and connector HAVE to come back to the full rear position for there to be security in the sear / trigger engagement.
In its simplest form, an over-ride trigger is two levers and two springs and two retaining pins. The M-70 is exactly that, plus an over-travel adjustment. The ‘Sako style’ over-ride triggers, contained in a housing having more parts, operate exactly the same—The trigger props up the sear and when the sear is allowed to fall, the gun fires.
In the Remington-Walker trigger, the safety ‘problem’ is NOT in the safety. This is a common misconception but it’s important to realize the Remington-Walker safety is not the cause of firing without a trigger pull. The safety could be called a ‘victim of circumstance’ in that it is converted to a trigger without the shooter’s knowledge.
How does it do that?
Let’s take a look at some patent language, shall we. Go to page 3, beginning on line 60 and read through to Page 4, line 61.
This description has several parts and pieces that need examination. It starts by telling how the connector (you’ll hear that word a lot) is not fastened inside the trigger housing, but ‘flexibly mounted’ in it. That means it’s loose on the trigger but for the trigger return spring pushing against it. A lot of the verbiage describes nifty ways of making the housing out of a stamping, but that was discontinued many years ago.
Page 4, line 22 through 40 is where it gets interesting to an experienced shooter.
“This stop screw provides an adjustment to positively stop trigger movement just as the sear is released and makes possible the complete elimination of undesirable trigger slap or overtravel.”
Page 4, line 40 starts a section that needs to be examined very closely:
“ If we examine the functioning of the unit, we will observe that the trigger and connector move as a unit,…”
and line 44,
“At this point the trigger stops but the connector ….”
Hold on, right there. Let’s read that again and make SURE you know what that says, then try it on your UNLOADED rifle.
Does the trigger stop it’s motion as the sear drops off of it? If it does, the patent makes sense. The operation of the connector would shorten the overall travel of the trigger to only the amount of the sear engagement and nothing more. But, if the trigger is going to travel until it hits the stop screw anyway, why complicate the trigger with a part that has no benefits? The amount of motion in the trigger is as little as it can be made if the corners are square and the sear falls cleanly from the corner of the trigger.
EXPERIMENT–
Take any unloaded, bolt action rifle with an over-ride trigger in it (anything bolt-action and civilian). With the rifle uncocked and bolt closed, carefully pull the trigger several times and note how much movement there is. It’s usually about .020 inch or about two thirds the thickness of a credit card. What the patent is saying is that the trigger does not move that .020 after the sear trips. It says the trigger stops when the sear trips. That, of course is demonstrably not true. Try it on any rifle. The trigger ‘follows through’ as the gun fires. You can’t stop it short of the stop if you wanted to. So, what are we left with?
Using .020 inch as the sear-trigger engagement figure and assuming the pivot pin is near the center of the trigger, it can be said the trigger pull is .020”, plus a clearance after disengagement to allow the sear to fall without touching anything. Call the total trigger movement .030 inch when the trigger pull plus overtravel is figured. By actual experiment you can see that the movement of a Remington-Walker trigger is exactly the same as any other trigger having the same sear engagement and the nonsense on Page 4, line 30 does not apply.
“…for it is not practicably possible to produce and maintain absolutely sharp square corners on the engaging surfaces of the sear and conventional trigger.”
Nobody says that an absolutely sharp square corner is needed to make a good trigger, and everybody but Remington has done so.
So, why the connector? If the connector really doesn’t do anything, why have it? Is it cheaper than say a heat-treated trigger by any other maker? Possibly, but others have solid triggers.
Does it, in ANY way, make the trigger a ‘better’ trigger? No, it’s just different. It does not reduce the trigger movement at all, but it’s different simply because it’s more complicated.
It seems to be the perfect example of a new design patent as the result of one little change to something invented prior. In this case, the improvements and attributes said to be present in the Remington-Walker don’t perform the function claimed in the patent. The change in the trigger design was for the purposed of a patent and not for performance.
Operation–
An over-ride trigger must, absolutely MUST, return to full position after every shot. The trigger return spring is there to do that job. That’s the spring you feel in the trigger when the rifle is not cocked. A trigger that does not return to the proper position reliably under the sear is more likely to cause the gun to fire without the trigger being pulled. That is simple physics and easily set up in demonstration. “Return to battery” for internal trigger parts is part and parcel of over-ride trigger operations.
The Remington-Walker’s ‘trigger’ is not the piece you put your finger on. The part that acts as the trigger under the sear is actually the connector which is ‘flexibly connected’ to the trigger body. The trigger return spring pushes the connector which then pushes the trigger body into position under the sear. The connector offers a complication that is not needed in the trigger. The addition of the connector only adds to the complexity of what is a very simple and amazingly reliable mechanism when its parts are limited to only what’s necessary to do the job.
Is a mechanism that’s called upon to return one lever with one spring more reliable than a spring pushing on an intermediary part and then the lever? Of course it is. The fewer parts, the simpler the mechanism, especially when dealing with simple levers.
With the re-positioning of the trigger-connector required after each shot, in the presence of recoil and powder residue and debris, the answer becomes even more certain. More parts means more complications without benefits.
HOW DO THEY FAIL?
Remington-Walker triggers are subject to several failures all due to displacements of the connector inside the trigger housing. These failures are common enough to have acronyms for them:
FSR– Fire on Safety Release.
How many people have pulled the trigger with the safety ON just to ‘test’ it out? I know of hunter safety instructors that teach it as a good thing to do every time the safety is applied. How many times is the trigger pulled while the safety is ON but not by the shooter? That’s probably a rarer occurrence but it does happen, that’s why manual safeties and trigger guards are put on guns.
Should the trigger be pulled on a Remington-Walker, and the connector become displaced so that it does not return with the trigger, the shooter feels the trigger return not knowing the connector did not follow along with the trigger to its proper place under the sear. In that position, the safety lever is holding up the sear and the rifle fires when the safety is pushed to OFF.
Prior to 1982, Remington rifles had a ‘bolt lock’ incorporated with the safety lever. (#32 Fig. 1) That bolt lock means the gun has to be taken off safe in order to unload it. FSR is one of the most common failures and the one that’s caused the most damage, injury and deaths. In simple terms it’s the improper displacement of the connector during the time the gun is ON safe. The ‘trigger’ is in the proper position, but the connector is not.
JO—Jar Off
When the gun fails due to impact it is said to have ‘jarred off’. Precarious ‘perching’ of the sear on the very corner or edge of the connector causes a fragile connection that can fail with bumping or jarring. In all other over-ride triggers, this displacement is usually caused by improper adjustment of the sear engagement screw . A Remington-Walker can change that engagement dimension and drastically change the security of the system by simply capturing debris between two internal parts. It ‘adjusts’ itself to little engagement and just as quickly adjusts the other way as the debris is dislodged by the recoil of the shot.
FBO and FBC–
These refer to firing without a pull of the trigger when the bolt is opened or closed. This is a variation of a common ‘Jar Off’ caused by vibration of the bolt closing (easy to reproduce by mal-adjusting the sear engagement.) or the change in alignment of parts as the bolt handle is touched to open it. In both instances the most common cause is a connector being held out of position by debris, dirt, powder flakes, dried grease on any number of things that trickle through the mechanism as it’s fired and stored. Fire on bolt close many times happens on the first loading after long storage. By design, the connector is pushed away from the trigger body when the rifle is in the fired position. That gives a chance for lint and debris to collect in sufficient quantity to alter the sear engagement the first few times the gun is then ‘exercised’.
Can any of these failures occur in other triggers? Yes.
The operation of over-ride triggers, whether Jewel, Timney, Canjar, or Remington-Walker is the same. The trigger is a prop for the sear. If it doesn’t properly support the sear under knocks and bumps a hunting rifle takes in doing its job, a discharge without a trigger pull can happen. The point is that the Remington-Walker has an extra ‘trigger’ that does NOT do the job it was patented to do and it’s much more subject to become displaced than competing ‘solid’ triggers. Why is that connector in there?
Over-ride triggers, by design, are very fragile things and scary to think about when you also consider the risk involved. That they work well enough for a hunting rifle could have been disputed before the M-70 made it a fact in 1937. What had been known as a ‘target’ trigger became mainstream and a hunting trigger.
The M-70 has two parts pinned in a milled recess in the bottom of the receiver which keeps side to side motion to a minimum so the two parts are held closely in alignment with each other and the cocking piece. The M-70 trigger scrapes the sear surface clean into a trash trench cut in the trigger on each shot. There is no housing to catch debris. The sear comes up through a port in the rear tang which allows very little contamination of the trigger parts. The sear spring is nearly sealed and debris is blocked from entry into critical areas. ‘Bad’ M-70 triggers are the result of bad gunsmithing and usually found on match rifles. Otherwise they’re very reliable and after a period of ‘break-in’ are usually very ‘good’ triggers.
Points to consider—
The Remington-Walker has an extra part that’s free to move around inside the housing. That’s the connector.
The connector is displaced from the front of the trigger on every shot due to the angularity of the back edge of the connector which is impacted by the corner of the sear as it falls. That is by design. Page 4, lines 46-50.
“…and, as the sear is cammed down, the radii existing on the points of the connector and the sear cause the connector to be cammed forwardly and completely clear of the sear step. …”
In a mechanism subject to environmental conditions as well as lubricants and powder residue, two parts that separate several times during recoil are subject to a wide variety of contamination between them. As can be seen by study of the mechanism and it’s patent, the Remington-Walker trigger is not self cleaning and it is housed within steel walls, but the unit is open at the top where the greater amount of such contamination is present.
The top of the Remington trigger housings are totally exposed in the rear tang of the rifle. At each operation of the sear, debris is ‘pumped’ into the housing. (Look at the top of the bolt release to see the stuff that comes all the way through the trigger.) Each operation of the bolt pushes more material into the vicinity of the sear opening. Remington-Walker triggers do get dirty and they can’t be easily cleaned without disassembly. Disassembly of the trigger breaks the factory seals.
The connector is, in reality, a separate flexibly mounted trigger. It cannot be felt by the shooter. The position of the connector can be different than the position of the trigger without the shooter knowing it. The shooter can not know the position of the connector, it’s out of his control and out of his view.
Practical gunsmith’s test of the Remington-Walker trigger—
Over the decades, standardized tests of Remington-Walker triggers have been developed to show a trigger that is prone to repeatable failures. These tests are simple, non destructive and can be very useful in identifying triggers that are demonstrably bad. It must be kept in mind that just because a trigger passes these test does NOT mean it’s safe. As seen by the design, the defect is inherently present in the trigger. It just doesn’t always fail. The shooter has no way of knowing when that failure might occur.
“Tricking” a trigger is done by carefully placing the safety lever in the ‘null’ position between fire and safe. Some guns won’t perch there, some will. With the safety perched between detents, pull the trigger and release very slowly. Pay careful attention to a tiny ‘click’ as the trigger is pulled. If it’s there, the gun will likely fire when the safe is pushed to OFF. Try that test several times and flip the safe off after each careful pull. Tricking is a way to determine if the lift of the safety cam is enough to clear the top of the connector in half-way position.
“Screw driver Test” is done with the gun cocked and ON safe. Push against the bottom of the connector, seen just in front of the bolt release leaf, with a screwdriver or punch and then push the safety to OFF. If the connector is sloppy on the trigger it will over ride the front of the sear so that the sear has no support when the safety is released. Guns that fail this test can sometimes fire on safety release after suffering common vibrations in a vehicle or on horseback.
“Sear lift test” assures the safety cam raises the sear high enough to not drag on the connector when on safe. Place the rifle safety ON and pull the trigger several times and release it slowly. If the connector drags on the bottom of the sear it can’t get back under the sear to catch it as the safety is flipped OFF.
Guns that have been dropped while on safe can develop this failure by denting the safety cam.
Trigger adjustments–
Just be aware that the clear to cloudy-yellow sealer found on Remington-Walker screws is put there by assemblers as the trigger undergoes final adjustment at the factory. When that sealer is removed, the company has a certain amount of deniability and ‘blame’ is transferred to the one doing the adjusting. (I know, I know!!) I’ve adjusted Remington triggers for forty years because so many are useless without it. Just be aware of the liability involved and how it works so it’s not made (much) worse by alterations of the surfaces or excessive adjustments.
Trigger repair—
The Remington-Walker can be made into a solid trigger system without using the connector by replacing the trigger and connector by an aftermarket or shop-made trigger, OR, the connector can be epoxied to the body of the trigger as long as one thing is done very carefully; The rear of the connector has to be ground square after the epoxy sets, BUT the actual disengaging corner of the connector has to be left in its’ original position relative to the center line of the trigger pivot pin. It takes a precision grinder and fixture to do it right. Do it wrong and the trigger is even more unpredictable and could become very dangerous. Without grinding the rear of the connector square, the sear hitting the angle will soon break the epoxy bond and the trigger is worse than before.
In the coming weeks, the Remington-Walker trigger is going to be in the news. Those that know guns will be answering questions from those that don’t. Please have the facts and please, please just look at the mechanism and the patent and understand how it all works and it’s then very easy to see how it also fails.
Another article found today:
CNBC PRESENTS “REMINGTON UNDER FIRE: A CNBC INVESTIGATION”
CNBC ORIGINAL TAKES VIEWERS INSIDE A 10-MONTH INVESTIGATION OF THE WORLD’S MOST POPULAR HUNTING RIFLE AND EXAMINES WHETHER A COMPANY HAS GONE TOO FAR IN PROTECTING ITS SIGNATURE PRODUCT
One-Hour Documentary Reported by CNBC’s Senior Correspondent Scott Cohn to Premiere on CNBC on Wednesday, October 20th at 9PM ET/PT
ENGLEWOOD CLIFFS, N.J., October 11, 2010—The Remington Model 700-series rifle —with more than five million sold—is one of the world’s most popular firearms. Famous for its accuracy, the rifle is now the target of a series of lawsuits alleging that it is unsafe and susceptible to firing accidentally. Remington insists its rifle is safe, trusted, and reliable, though a trail of death and serious injury dating back decades has prompted critics to ask whether this iconic American company has compromised safety in the name of profits, and gone too far in trying to protect its signature product. CNBC, First in Business Worldwide, takes viewers inside its 10-month investigation.
On Wednesday, October 20th at 9PM ET/PT, CNBC presents, “Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation,” reported by award-winning Senior Correspondent Scott Cohn. This CNBC Original documentary examines allegations that the Remington Model 700- series hunting rifle is prone to firing without pulling the trigger, and that its manufacturer, Remington, has been aware of this concern for almost 60 years. Dozens of deaths, scores of injuries, and more than a thousand customer complaints have been linked to the alleged problem. The story is told through former corporate insiders and the company’s own internal documents. Cohn speaks to several gun owners who suffered devastating consequences as a result of the 700-series rifle, including Rich Barber, a father who has devoted his life to finding answers about the tragic death of his nine-year-old son.
The CNBC investigation took Cohn from Florida to Alaska; along the way, he uncovered the existence of thousands of complaints and more than 75 lawsuits, all involving inadvertent discharges of the rifle. Cohn spoke with dozens of avid hunters and gun owners, as well as police snipers and military personnel, who say they’ve experienced this problem—the very problem Rich Barber says resulted in the death of his young son. Remington has consistently maintained that the deaths, injuries, and inadvertent discharges involving its bolt-action 700-series rifles have been the result of poor maintenance, unsafe handling, or improper modification of the trigger by the customer.
Nearly four of every ten bolt-action rifles sold is a Remington, and sales of the 700- series have brought the company hundreds of millions over the last six decades. CNBC tracks down 98-year-old Mike Walker, the Remington engineer who designed the trigger for the Remington 700. For the first time, Walker tells his story. Walker’s internal company memos, obtained by CNBC, indicate that he repeatedly raised concerns, even after he retired from Remington, about the trigger system he designed. Other concerns were raised as well, including one from a Remington colleague who warned in a memo, “this situation can be very dangerous.” Walker proposed a relatively inexpensive solution, though Remington has never recalled the rifle, and insists it has no defect.
CNBC’s investigation found that Remington considered a “call back” of the 700 rifle, but decided against it. No one can order a gun manufacturer to recall a firearm; while federal regulators can order the recall of most consumer products – food, medicine, and even air rifles and crossbows – they do not have authority to impose a firearm recall. That leaves the responsibility for manufacturing and marketing a safe gun in the hands of individual companies like Remington.
Remington has responded to the numerous first-hand accounts of accidental firings by maintaining they are the result of poor maintenance and unsafe handling, often by inexperienced users. Remington officials declined to speak to CNBC for this documentary, instead offering comments in writing. Cohn speaks with a former Remington employee whose job involved dealing with customer complaints related to the 700-series rifle. He tells CNBC he was instructed not to acknowledge to these customers any problem with the rifle, and says if he had, he would have lost his job.
For more information including web extras and extended video clips, log onto Remington.cnbc.com.
Mitch Weitzner is the Senior Executive Producer of “Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation.” Jeff Pohlman is the Senior Producer. Ray Borelli is the Vice President of Strategic Research, Scheduling and Long Form Programming.
CNBC’s “Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation” will re-air on Wednesday, October 20th at 10PM ET/PT, Sunday, October 24th at 10PM ET, Thursday, October 28th at 8PM ET and 12AM ET, and Sunday, October 31st at 1AM ET.
It’s fall and time to check your wood pile, some suggest this year will be an extra cold winter, if you get too much wood in, you burn it next year, it’s like money in the bank. You think burning wood is less than responsible? Read John Laswell’s articles on wood burning here in the Utterpower pages, get the facts before you condem wood burners. It’s a renewable resource, and we need not order it from the middle east. The other day I was surfing ‘You Tube’ and came across a useful idea, Jerry Bartlett using his solar panels to split wood!
I reflected back on my days prior to having my own off grid site to experiment with. I imagined which loads were appropriate for solar and which were not, (experience changed my thinking in a hurry).
I smiled as I watched Jerry load a round of wood and pull the actuator on his solar powered wood splitter, My mind spawned memories of the sweet smells of wood pitch, fragrant cedars, and all the joys of filling a wood shed on a fall day. Being ready for winter is a good feeling.
If you are a die-hard DIYer, if you enjoy Alternative Energy you might already know Jerry, if you don’t, it’s time you paid him a visit.
Following is a reply I received from Jerry this A.M., after I asked him if he had any stories he wanted to share here:
Hi George,
The new website format is excellent and you have some great reading on Utterpower. This has inspired me to write briefly about a recent project that may also fit in.
Many moons ago an utterpower Lister style genset made it’s way cross country to Colton, NY. After the initial install, I was able to really grasp the idea and value of those heavy rotating flywheels when it came to smoothing out power strokes and starting brief heavy loads (just like you said). Experiencing the simplicity of these units in action leaves an indelible print in one’s memory and in my case challenged me to look for ways to possibly use such simple energy storage – in this case from flywheels.
Fast forward to the latest endeavor which I’ve coined: Electro-Split.
The Electro-Split is a flywheel based electric wood splitter, and is not really anything new, but sometimes a classic idea needs to be revived to remind us of where we “aren’t” yet.
This project was KISS at it’s finest: simply replace the 28 year old gas 3HP Honda engine (points and oil bath air cleaner model!) with an electric motor. In their lifetime, most people will only see the Geological Column in books but in my case it exists in Jurassic Park (the pole barn). Out there, somewhere down near the Cambrian layer was an old 1/2 horsepower westinghouse electric motor. I attached the motor to the splitter and gave it a test run. It didn’t work half bad but didn’t have quite enough pepper to do repeated flywheel speed recoveries when encountering strings of knots in a log. The motor’s thermal overload protection would shut it down. The speed at which the splitter had run during this time was impressive – every bit as fast as the 3hp gas engine.
Revisiting Jurassic Park, I was able to skillfully hook a 3/4 horse Marathon electric motor! The results this time were perfect for the application and the final result is an electric powered, super quiet, very fast and controllable wood splitter. It uses less power than my Dirt Devil upright vacuum and it’s easy on either inverter. Over the past couple of weeks we have had decent weather and I’ve found myself looking forward into using this machine while listening to the radio (that is not blaring). The woodshed is filling fast with huge rows of kindling and I’m still not running a power deficit at the end of the day. Like the Utterpower 6/1 genset from years ago, this is a great example of appropriate technology.
A webpage of this project (with video link near bottom) can be accessed at:
If you have not read about Jerry’s Changzuki project, consider doing so. Jerry has a most creative mind, you might enjoy learning about the annual competition Jerry enters regarding alternative energy and it’s application by the home owner. No surprise, Jerry’s home is a very popular stop during the annual competition. His mention of an Utterpower generator set? There may be 10 sets total, most of them were constructed to gain the hands on experience I think is so important. Most all sets were put in the hands of people known to have excellent DIYer skills, and those who would make reports back to utterpower as to what was working well, and what needed improvement.
Let’s all thank the all knowing and all caring extreme left for banning our beloved slow speed engines that burn bio fuels so responsibly. We know the EPA is only a political football kicked around at our expense through the courts. The way it works is we pay huge sums of money to defend the EPA’s actions whether they rule in favor of an action or reject it. It’s kind of like the perfect Trojan Horse you’d pull to the entrance of your enemy’s fortress under cover of a moonless night. It’s designed for blood letting, and over time it weakens the host, is this self inflicted, or are those who lead the charge to establish such an organization off shore? do they know how to rally our own people under the guise of a green cause?
Let’s look at the Department of Energy… formed in 1977 because people were worried that 30% of our oil was imported. In 2010, we find the DOE has been so focused on building their emense empire that they have not had time to address their intended MISSION. In 2010 we import 60% of our oil! So here again the American people entrust in big government and all they get in return is a staggering tax bill to support an organization that has done absolutely nothing when it comes to their principle mission!
With all of these examples of failure, we now see Americans willing to accept another Government promise to manage health care!
Few who read these pages will expect anything other than long lines, diagnosis by a nurse, and being placed on a waiting list to die. The promise is the same one made in Greece, and we are stupid enough to think the outcome will be different?
It’s all about November 2010,
Many of us already know the outcome of the government’s involvement in health care.. 10 years from now you will know we could have turned over the management of health care to the Taliban and
But there are others to thank on the far left and weak politicians like our own Dave Reichert who will unwittingly go along with those who wish to turn over every decision to Government through Cap and Trade. There will be no reason to vote one Cap and Trade passes and half your fellow Americans are all right with that!
