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The FuKing 6/1 Indian Listeroid Review

Greetings: I decided to post this versus answer questions individually about what I found in this engine. My experience is based on two partial tear downs, and feed back from two owners who have torn into them.

Remember... what you find may be different, I always recommend a tear down, and I suggest you pull those cam covers and check for any trapped casting sand under the sealing paint, use a screw driver, and poke and prod the insides of the covers. Address these things up front, and know that sand is NOT your Engine's friend.

I have done my best to bring together a CD that will help you access Lister Type engine quality, and tell you how to prepare this engine for hard work. Lister Longevity 

And now.... the findings! 5/2004 shipment

After opening the crate, I was pleased to see an alloy valve cover, this is a pretty nice touch.

The castings were all excellent, in fact, I've never seen stock work engines with any better castings. The door on the engine case is blank, it has no name, and will allow you to place a nice lister decal there, or other personal touch.

I was pleased to see the engine is equipped with a nice 90 degree inlet pipe for the Intake side, and a nice exhaust flange with National Pipe threads (our standard)

Muffler is a pepper can, made of good metal, but a little on the small side.

the Air Cleaner is not pretty, but might be useful, plan on converting it to a paper or foam element.

The gas tank is one of the better Indian units I've seen, (this means they're useful, not beautiful). The tank is not equipped with a shut off valve, this may be a blessing, because most of them leak.

The low pressure fuel lines have good fittings at either end, but the fuel line is 'see thru' plastic, I'd be cutting the fittings loose, and using some good American made fuel line.

The flywheels are 22.x inches in diameter, and they are the classic six spoke items that seem to be far more appealing to those wanting to buy one.

The fuel filter is not the best, but it's not the worst I've seen for sure.

Injection pump is a real Mico (Indian Bosch) these are well made.

Out of four engines, we found casting sand in the sump of one, we tore that one down further to find a nicely honed cylinder , no damage in the cylinder, but there was a piece of sand in the main bearing. I suggested polishing the crank pin, and installing a fresh rod bearing. BUT... you never do this till you tear down the engine and see where more sand might be hiding... cam covers are spots I've found it, and I look at each one on my engines. Borrow a pressure washer, and hose out the entire engine case., then spray all down with WD 40.

It was nice to see that the tappets rotate well, I saw most of non rotation problems in the Metro engines, and people are still reporting this problem; but I have seen it in other brands as well. Let's hope none of the FuKing's have this problem.

The potential of finding casting sand is a bummer, but it's something we can deal with. Finding castings this nice is a treat, and it makes it a more attractive purchase.

If you remember what I had to say about the Prakash, this engine has far superior components, like intake pipes, muffler, air cleaners etc. It's also Hunter Green.. not that ugly Metallic paint.

One thing that is strikingly different about these FuKing Engines is the quality of threaded holes and fasteners. It's as if the assembler had invested in some new tooling, or hired somebody that that knew what he was doing. The FuKing drain hole looks like it was threaded with something quite advanced, it was done on equipment versus by hand with a worn out tap. The plug is also much nicer, has finer threads, and has a soft washer for an oil tight seal.   

If you can buy it right, you'll have fun with this engine, it's a real Lister CS clone, and it takes the standard parts!

Updates to what I've learned..

 

Update: 6/7/04

To date, I am not sure that all engines are built on the same castings in this lot, but all have looked good. Casting Sand was found in another engine, and it did indeed wipe out the big end rod bearings, there were some scratches found on the crank pin, but these were polished out by hand. At this point, I would consider this lot of engines, a grab bag item, or an engine KIT, there are folks that have thoroughly inspected their engines, and found zero sand... but Murphy's Law says you will be the one that gets a triple dose of sand.... right? If you buy from this lot, and you don't inspect it before running it, you could completely destroy it in a few hours running. If you are not comfortable tearing it down (easy to do), pass on this engine, and spent $900 or more on a good work engine, it will be worth the extra money for the mechanically challenged, or those that don't enjoy doing their own work. Remember, these are heavily crated engines, and it is NOT feasible to uncrate, inspect, and re-crate them. This pretty much guarantees, the dealer isn't picking through them to find the the ones with sand. If you have a typical un-crating experience, you'll be at it for an hour or two on the first crate, watch those metal re-enforcements, they can be sharp and dangerous. 

 

Update 6/20/04

I got an email from a guy who returned a Fuking 6/1 to Joel. One flywheel was pretty ugly, Joel always takes stuff back when people are not satisfied.... that's a re-assuring thing. But this is another strike against Prakash in my book. As I said before.. a builder who has access to such beautiful castings, and felt a need to throw in a blem, what kind of foresight does that take?

I try my best to be accurate in my assessments, and I have no problem calling a dog a dog. Due to the fact that Prakash does not seem to know how to properly clean engine castings, I would never again recommend importing assembled engines from them. It is all too bad because they seem to have access to some of the nicer castings I have seen. For the mechanic, this can be an opportunity to buy a 6/1 for a great price. Most who purchase are happy...

For some of us, we wouldn't think of running a new Listeroid, till we tore it apart and put it back together the way we want. If you have that attitude, this might be a fun way to go, and like I say, you're buying a grab bag, but at this point the odds are still in your favor. Pulling a Lister down can be fun.

Note... If you bought a METEX engine suffering from an intake tappet that doesn't rotate, this problem is covered in Lister Longevity

6/29/04

following is Mac's review of this engine...you may find more or less problems. Note: an active belt tension system

 

Mac McQuaid’s First Lister 6/1, a first hand experience with this lot of engines

 

I have always had a secret love affair with those old slow speed big bore single and two cylinder engines. The thump … thump of that big old piston and the whirl of the flywheel is simply magical.

I have owned two John Deer tractor thumpers in the past but simply did not have a logical use for them so eventually they were sold.

I am currently living in an “off the grid” community in western Montana. The traditional answer to electricity in this setting is solar panels, batteries, inverter and some sort of backup power for those times when the sun does not shine. This approach will work just fine for our living quarters but what about power for the shop? Small motors and lights can run off the inverter but what about my 1 ½ hp 220 volt air compressor, lathe, milling machine, welder, etc. What to do ….

A backup generator is in order but there are several questions. How big … gas, diesel, or propane … high speed or slow speed engine.  Here is the procedure I used to determine my generator needs.

How big … if I had 15 amps of 220 (3,300 watts) single phase power this would run everything in my shop except my welder and have enough power to charge batteries when the sun is uncooperative.
Gas, diesel or propane … gas is not an option because of the limited storage potential and high cost. Propane was a consideration but diesel seemed to be the best choice for me for the following reasons. Can be stored for longer time periods than gas … might be more obtainable in tough times … can be run on other fuels than regular diesel fuel. The best reason of all? I can justify a Listeroid 6/1 engine and put it to practical use in a real live daily use application.
High or low speed engine … this one was easy. Logic tells me that the less times the piston makes the trip up and down the cylinder … the longer the engine will last. 650 RPM engine must last longer than a 3,600 RPM engine.

I came across Utterpower.com and communicated with owner, George Breckenridge. George was very helpful answering my many questions. When George received his next shipment of engines from India, I made the trip from western Montana to Kent Washington to pick up an engine and get some face to face information. Again, George was very helpful.

With the 6/1 safely in my shop I got busy building a frame to hold the Listeroid and the 5KW generator head. I had a couple of weeks to wait for delivery of the drive pulley for the flat serpentine drive belt from Utterpower. During this 2 week period I had time to tinker with my 6/1 (my wife named it Lizzie). During this time I simply could not resist walking by Lizzie without giving the crank a few turns and listen to that music she makes. I only ran the engine for a few minutes at a time as I was told that it is not recommended running a new 6/1 without a partial load. During this pre-work running I noticed I was getting some oil splatters out of the exhaust. I was concerned but decided not to get too upset until I saw how she responded to a load. The oil spatter went away with the first load and has not returned. IMHO I think the rings were simply not seated.

I purchased the publication Lister Longevity from George. I read it cover to cover a few times. I decided to follow the recommendations and tear the engine down before putting too many hours on it. I was somewhat apprehensive about pulling the head, barrel and piston from a brand new engine but forged ahead. At this point let me make two statements. 1) Lister Longevity is a “must have” tool. 2) this is the simplest, most straight forward engine I have ever encountered. A novice can have the head on the bench in 15 minutes and the barrel and piston benched in another 15 minutes. Good thing I took the time to tear the engine down and do a thorough job of cleaning the innards. I found contamination in the big end rod bearing. There was some light scoring of the crank journal which I was able to polish out with light emery paper. I replaced the rod bearing with a new one. I found casting sand trapped behind paint in the lower part of the engine which could have been loosened with use and time and had the potential to do major damage to my new engine. I cleaned all the paint from the tappets and guides and trued up the tappet faces with a precision grinder. (George now has face ground tappets that can be purchased outright or exchanged) There were some other “tune up” items that were outlined in Listeroid Longevity that were preformed prior to re-assembly. The entire cleaning job only took a few hours … a cheap price to pay for the peace of mind knowing that there were no surprises lurking in the oil pan.

 

The new drive pulley arrived and was installed along with a new serpentine belt that made the connection between Lizzie and the generator head.  The time had arrived to see how the combo would perform. I have always had a great respect for diesel engines and their fuel systems. It is a well known fact that you don’t want to run a diesel out of fuel as you surely will enlarge your vocabulary with anti social words before you get all the air out of the lines and get it running again. I definitely had air in the lines as they were taken loose in order to get the head and barrel removed. I remembered how George had shown me how to take the vinyl return line loose from the injector, lower it below the fuel filter until fuel … no bubbles … came out of the tube. Next loosen the banjo bolt on the fuel pump until fuel flows .. no bubbles. After tightening the banjo bolt it was time to loosen the high pressure fuel line at the injector. With the compression lever on and the injector pump lever in the down (run) position the engine was easy to spin until there was fuel squirting from the high pressure line at the injector. I tightened the line nut and was ready to listen to the “ping” sound made by the injector when it fires. Ready for the big test … compression release on … rack control up … hand crank the engine while lowering rack control and releasing compression release … bingo! She fired first compression stroke!

That’s about as simple as a diesel engine gets.

 

I had an old hot water heater that was a candidate for a thermo siphon setup for cooling water for Lizzie. Rigged up the upper and lower hoses as outlined in Lister Longevity … started filling the tank with water … oops … the darn thing leaks. This old tank was rusted out near the bottom. I turned the tank up side down and welded some legs on the top (which is now the bottom). This worked OK; but I  have since acquired another tank form the local dump that is in much better shape and is working excellent.

 

Now to hookup up the generator to the main panel. U1 & U2 is where I hooked up the power leads that connect to the main buss on the breaker box. Each line being ½ of the 220 volt configuration. What to do with the white (neutral) line … not being an electrician and knowing only enough to be get buy I hooked the neutral up to the ground lug on the outside frame of the generator … bad idea! The result was high voltage on the two U1 & U2 terminals resulting in some surprises. First thing … my wife came bursting into the shop … your computer is smoking! The computer was turned off so it was not hurt but the surge protector is now a crispy critter. Burned out a round florescent light and a small power transformer for my ni cad battery charger. The moral to this story … get someone who understands how to hookup the generator. The results could be expensive and dangerous. I called George and he walked me through the correct lug to connect the neutral.

 

With the generator correctly wired to the breaker panel it was time to try the new setup. Lights worked OK, bench grinder .. OK, milling machine … OK, band saw … OK, 1 ½ hp 220 air compressor … OK (Lizzie was working harder now with rack about half open). Now for the big test … turned everything off and threw the breaker for the electric hot water heater … OK! My clamp on amp meter shows 12 and 14 amps on the two legs calculated to be around 3,100 watts. Later I added more load until a maximum of about 4,000 watts was being produced. Lizzie was working very hard and the throttle rack was all but wide open. I did not feel comfortable forcing this much load on a new unit so removed load back to a more comfortable level.

 

I have been experimenting with my 2 cylinder China diesel for several months burning WVO (waste vegetable oil). In my tests I found that there is much less hassle if some regular diesel is blended with the WVO.  So … I thought … lets try a blend of diesel and WVO in Lizzie. I started out with a mix of 25/75 WVO/diesel … seemed to run just fine with no negative results. The next gallon was mixed 33/66 … no change … seemed OK. I continued modifying the mixture slowly until now at 110 hours I am running a 80/20 WVO diesel mix. Keep in mind it is summer time and the temperature is moderate. I am not heating the mixture. The surprising thing?  Lizzie starts the same as it did on straight diesel! At 100 hours I pulled the injector for an inspection, this can be a time consuming project in other engines, but took only 10 minutes here. The tip of the injector had very little carbon build up and took only a few minutes to cleanup using some scotch bright. I decided not to pull the head to inspect the combustion chamber until at least 200 hours unless something changes. My conclusion at least at this point is I am very pleased with the results using WVO/diesel blend. Time will tell how well it will work in the long haul.

 

Everything was going great until I hit about 100 hours when I turned on the air compressor and it acted like it had low voltage … would not start and get up to speed. I thought there was a wiring problem but everything checked out OK. What could be the problem? It was then I noticed that the belt was not centered on the generator pulley. The belt had stretched a little or the alignment was off a little. I tightened the belt … started Lizzie .. threw the breaker for the air compressor … OK … back in business. Moral to this story … keep an eye on the belt for alignment and tension.

Note from George: designing around the anti 'racking' generator sub assembly, and using the super simple KISS tension system eliminates drive problems period, this is now discussed on the CD in great detail.

The only other excitement … I got busy and forgot to keep the tank filled and I ran Lizzie out of fuel. What a bummer … not really. I went through the procedure above and had her back on line in about 10 minutes. How’s that for simple and dependable?

 Just a side note … I don’t have my solar setup completed yet and we have been running Lizzie 12 to 16 hours per day. She seems happy and content.

 

Mac McQuaid

 

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Following is advice from the importer of Prakash and the FuKing engine. If you start an engine on a crate bottom, you could be asking for big trouble! also note, there are folks who are using four by six timbers with wide and heavy angle iron on the inside. Engines, and other equipment are then bolted through the angle into the wood. If you visit Steve Gray's old engine shed, you'll see that wood is a traditional way of mounting old engines.

IN India, they often pour two yards of concrete and set mounting bolts deep in the mix to firmly mount the engine.

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The following are a few thoughts about setting up a slow-speed diesel engine for doing work. It is not meant to be all-inclusive, but is just bits of what I've learned in 40 years or so of working on diesel engines and selling them.

(1-Be sure you have the right kind and amount of lubricating oil in a clean engine.

(2-Be sure the fuel tank and lines are clean, the fuel is clean, and the lines, filter, etc, have been progressively bled from the tank to the engine.

(3-Be sure that the coolant lines, tanks, radiator, and/or etc. are properly set up and that coolant is in the system at the proper level before you run the engine for more than 3-5 minutes. (no load)

(4-ALWAYS have the engine fastened down BEFORE you try to start it. This applies to ALL engines, not just diesels.

(5-Because of my sawmill background, I have always liked to use wooden 6X6's, 8X8s, or even larger timbers for engine frames, and go "down" at least a second crosswise support layer under the engine before bolting into concrete or? The wood absorbs a lot of the shock and vibration of a running engine, is inexpensive, and is easy to fit.

(6-Direct-drive is very popular, because the least amount of transmission power is lost. In the sawmills, we always liked belts, because they were more forgiving of alignment, offered some shock and "runout" absorption, and would "give" in case of a dire emergency.

(7-If you are going to use the engine to power a generator, ALWAYS have a safety device between the generator and the load that will trip in case of failure, overspeed, etc. Our"beach house" is serviced by a small PUD in Washington State, and we have lost three PCs, two monitors, and a darned expensive refrigerator because of their wild voltage fluctuations, brownouts, etc, over the last 12 years. I really don't think a generator powered by a slow-speed or other diesel engine could be any LESS reliable than they have been, but why take a chance on it happening even once?

Best wishes,
Joel
(sawyer@pacifier.com)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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All the best,

George B.