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Kit Engine Concept: Beta Test report 07/21/2006 update Following is a report from a Beta Tester, there was some thought put into the selection of the Tester, Quinn is a person in our community whom I have a great deal of respect, he has been following the Lister Types for some time, and has made a number of contributions to the utterpower knowledge base. Quinn is not a professional wrench, His profession is far from mechanical; and this is true of many DIYers. What we can count on, is an accurate assessment of the kit. Selected parts were sent to him from several sources, these parts were chosen at random, and many are heavily crated straight from India. As you read, there is a comparison made to Ashwamegh, this is because Quinn is most familiar with that brand. Ashwamegh's largest flaw was contamination and total lack of support for their dealers, they did deliver some very nice looking engines, but we feel this supplier is head and shoulders above Ashwamegh in their understanding of engineering principles and efforts to provide QC. Still, we are in deed talking about Rajkot India, and this is not an RA Lister, I expect these engines to be far better than some Indian machines that have already reached 7000 hours of running time with no parts required, (this is in the hands of DIYers, and we will always note that these engines are NOT for the non mechanical types employed as accountants or book keepers:-) The proof comes when operators report the documented run times, this of course is far different and far more valid than my expectations. As for forums and other places where info is posted, There is both good and bad advice out there, and it is always your job to separate the Wheat from the Chaff. I wish to thank all those who add to the knowledge base here at utterpower; thank you! All the best, George ------------------------------------------------------------
Inspection and Assembly of a Power Solutions 6/1 Lister-Type Diesel
7/6/06: The components and crankcase/cylinder subassembly arrived in separate wooden crates which had been strapped together with the spare parts kit on a 4’ x 4’ wooden pallet for transport. The straps holding the heavy components to the pallet passed over the spares kit, which were packaged in chipboard outer cartons with Styrofoam liners. A careless forklift handler could have torqued the package enough to crush the gas tank contained in one of the chipboard boxes. Since they are light weight, I wonder if it would be worthwhile to ship them separately.
The forklift driver at the ABF dock kept commenting on how heavy such a small crate was. I told him it contained diesel engine parts and that seemed to make sense to him. Drove home with the crates sliding around on the slippery bed liner in the back of my truck, so I took corners carefully. Seems no matter how I lash stuff down, heavy stuff slides on the plastic bed liner. 'Course that makes getting the crate out the back onto the tailgate that much easier.
I cut the nails holding the crates together with my sawzall and was impressed by the packaging job. The engine was sealed in a saffron-yellow plastic bag with a bag of silica desiccant hung from the governor linkage.
The parts inside stayed very clean that way. And the “curry dust” yellowish insecticidal powder stayed in the crate where it belonged, and not on the engine.
I opened the crate containing the flywheels and bar-curled one flywheel out of its box by hand. Then when I got halfway across the garage I decided that was probably not a wise thing to do again, given my ever-advancing age and the fact that I have never (yet) had back problems.
So I rigged up a chain hoist and lifted
the other one out the way I’m sure my doctor would recommend. Flywheels each
have two deep drilled holes appx 5/8" diameter, indicating that they may have
been balanced. The holes were drilled in different locations on each flywheel.
Unlike my Ashwamegh, the manufacturer drilled the web supporting the rim, and not the rim itself which is a better practice than drilling the rim.
Next step was to hoist the short block out of its crate. Doubled nuts on the base hold-down bolts made for easy removal. I kept noticing little things that by themselves don’t mean much. The nuts, studs and bolts used on this engine are of better quality than the ones used on my other engine, which may have been made in-house. I rigged up my lifting bar on two diagonal cylinder studs and the engine lifted out of the crate straight and level.
I set the engine on the 39" x 24" steel table that I made for working on the Ashwamegh and examined the engine.
Same funny-smelling green paint, but the oil pump and nicely formed steel oil lines with silver-soldered connections are an interesting feature.
Didn't have time today to pop off the crankcase access cover and peek inside, but I did take off the cylinder cover and check out the bore. The temporary aluminum gasket and plywood backer kept the cylinder very clean, and about an ounce of thick red oil covers the top of the piston, so whoever did the assembly did it right. Cylinder bore was nicely honed with hone marks crossing at 90 degrees in the middle of the stroke.
Overall impression is very favorable, compared with my other engine. Engine arrived much cleaner and had been packed with more care and better materials than the Ashwamegh was. Spares and gas tank came in boxes with custom Styrofoam inserts which indicates that the manufacturer invested in quality.
Time 45 minutes.
7/9/06: While waiting for my cylinder head to arrive I decided I would do some basic inspection and mount the flywheels. First I had to clean the red sealer off the crankshaft ends.
Acetone applied with a natural bristle paintbrush melted the red sealer immediately and didn’t affect the green paint (I wonder what, other than paint stripper, does). I was careful to keep the acetone away from the crankshaft oil seals. After applying a light film of oil to the now clean crankshaft ends the flywheels slid on without a hitch.
The gib keys fit as tight as last summer’s swimsuit. I had to insert the keys in the outboard end of the crankshaft keyway and tap them lightly with a hammer to move them along toward the flywheel hub. Recall that my other engine had a cumulative total of 0.029” clearance between the crankshaft keyway and the gib keys and the flywheel keyway which was causing it to sound like it had rod-knock. Brass shims fixed that problem, though, and that engine now runs like a watch.
I pulled the crankcase access cover and took a close look inside. Whoever painted this crankcase did a good job. Nice even thick coat of white paint. A little of the red assembly oil that I saw on the top of the piston appears to have leaked through the rings and dribbled on to the floor of the sump.
No grit, no dirt, no metal particles, but of course this engine hasn’t been run yet. A couple of flakes of paint fell off the lifter bodies as I was removing them and ended up in the upper sump. They can be seen in the photo above. At least this shows that the guy who assembled the engine had clean hands. We’ll see what shakes out at First Smoke, but from what I can see so far it appears someone heeded your directions about the importance of cleanliness.
One area that the painter missed on my other engine was the area under the cylinder deck. Pictures show that area was clean and well painted. I need to spend some time with a mirror and a dental pick poking into crevices to see if any surprises lurk beneath the paint.
The cam lobes look like they’re located correctly to ensure tappet rotation. Note that the painter was careful to wipe paint from the machined surfaces.
I grabbed the bronze idler gear and wiggled it around. No discernable backlash, but once the lifters are re-installed and pushrods load the cam lobes that may change. Stay tuned.
The “kangaroo pouch” upper/lower sump is interesting and should provide enough isolation from the goings-on upstairs to allow particles to settle. Just like the drawings in the manuals. I’m thinking a rectangular piece of old sock or terrycloth wrapped in steel screen and held down against the bottom of the lower sump with a few magnets might be a good way to trap nasties during break-in. The strainer on the intake of the oil pump line has a coarser mesh than I’d like to see, but a finger cut out of a cotton inspection glove or even a piece of old sock zip-tied around it would remedy that. I felt around in the sump and discovered that the black specks that appear to be particles in the photo below are actually paint droplets. Don’t know where they could have come from.
The tappet guides were stuck in position with paint. I could have gotten them free by just oiling them and scraping a little paint away with a knife, but since I was waiting for more parts to arrive, I thought I’d pull them and do a thorough inspection and cleaning.
Pulled the tappet
guides free of the deck with a set of round jaw Vise-Grips. Just a slight twist
and the paint seal broke and the guides came free of the deck. I didn’t squeeze
too hard, so didn’t scar the flanges.
The tappet stems and governor linkage were thoroughly goobered with green paint as is common on these engines. I scraped the paint off the stems, which revealed some
minor surface rust beneath the paint that made pushing the tappet down through its guide difficult. A touch with a ScotchBrite pad will fix that. I ended up using a small 3-jaw gear puller to pull the intake guide past a rough spot of rust on the tappet stem.
I’ll check the holders’ squareness and the lifter runout in a lathe this afternoon at a friend’s shop. From what I see so far I’ll be surprised if there is any problem with square or runout. Lifter faces are flat with concentric machining marks approximating a 220 grit finish. The marks were so consistent, they may have been made on a lathe equipped with a power feed. The cutter also appears to have been sharp. I see no reason to polish these surfaces to a mirror finish, though I'll probably run them over the buffer wheel with some rouge just because the wheel’s available.
Time spent today 1 hour. Cumulative project time 1h 45 m.
7/11/06: Stopped by my friend’s machine shop yesterday afternoon. I chucked the tappet stem in the lathe and turned it on. Both tappets spun true. No runout. I also placed a straight edge across the tappet faces and was able to fit a 0.003” feeler gauge between the center of the tappet face and the straight edge. My other engine had tappets cut the same way.
I inspected the inside of the crankcase carefully with a bright light, a mirror and a dental pick. The entire surface was evenly covered with paint. No holidays at all. This paint has no odor and is harder than the paint used on the exterior. I wonder if it might be a catalyzed paint like epoxy. Whatever it is, I couldn’t have done a better job sealing the crankcase had I done it myself. The dental pick was unable to penetrate the paint anywhere. No pockets of encapsulated grit were found in any of the usual places. Corners and minor hollows in the casting revealed no surprises.
I reinstalled the tappets and guides. The tappets now spin freely in their guides.
I unpacked the spares kit. It contained:
1 old-fashioned pump-type steel oil can 1 set rod bearings and shims 1 set intake and exhaust valves 1 pair gib keys 1 pair steel flywheel hub covers 1 pair pre-formed high-pressure steel fuel line with ferrules
The last item is a vast improvement over the chromed steel fuel lines that came with my Ashwamegh. The ferrules on that engine’s fuel lines had been ground on a grinding wheel that left many flat facets on what should have been a smooth, tapered formable surface. The ferrules were then soldered onto the steel lines. Then the entire line had been chromed. I suspect that ferrules were steel, since they never deformed as they should have when they were connected to the corresponding fittings. Hence, they leaked like a newborn until I replaced them with steel lines and high pressure brass ferrules.
The fuel tank was packed in a separate box that contained mounting hardware, braid-covered fuel line and fittings for connecting to the tank mounted fuel shutoff valve and the engine-mounted fuel filter.
No additional time was spent on assembly. Total cumulative time: 1h 45m
Quinn
July 19,2006
Gentlemen,
The last of the parts arrived today.
The labeling on Russell’s package was intact, but you can see that the tape was lifting, as if it was looking for something else to stick to. Had a cardboard box been placed on top of this lid, the tape might have stuck to the cardboard in preference to the slippery plastic. A duplicate label inside as we’ve already discussed would be cheap insurance.
The shipping label peeled off ever so easily.
The head was packed securely and the Styrofoam did its job keeping the heavy head from destroying the plastic box.
Contents of the head assembly. Someone in India placed the Power Solutions nameplate in a plastic bag with the mounting rivets dropped in loose. Then the sealed bag was placed on the bottom of the box, then the head was placed on top of the bag. The loose rivets did a good job of mangling the nameplate and registered every bump from Rajkot to its final destination. The damage isn’t very evident in this photo. It might be better to have them attach the plate to the head casting in India, or instruct your supplier to package the nameplate separately from the rivets and place them on top of the head casting.
The mating surface of the head was covered with a transparent sealer that was easily removed with a little acetone and a paintbrush. Lacquer thinner, spray carburetor or brake cleaner would work just as well.
Once the anti-rust coating had been wiped off it was clear that the head had been carefully surfaced. The camera flash makes the surface dirt and rust in the water galleries look much worse than it did visually.
I removed the valves in order to check their fit in the guides and to see whether anybody bothered to lap them into their seats. The valves were beautifully machined sealed tightly. Close examination of the valves and their seats indicated that they had been lapped.
The water galleries in the head were free of casting flash, however I managed to remove a piece of bailing wire from the water outlet. The wire might have been used to suspend the head casting from a hanger while it was being painted.
I replaced the valves, valve springs and keepers and installed the fuel injector. Again I have to say that the hardware that came with these parts was far superior to that on the Ashwamegh. Nuts, bolts and studs are thoroughly the equivalent of anything you’d find on an engine built in the West. And, yes, those are my bare size 13s. I kept telling myself that I’d stop assembling after the next part and put some shoes on, but I was having too much fun.
I unpacked the rocker assembly. The rocker arms run on a hollow shaft that is filled with heavy grease. A capscrew in the end of the rocker shaft must be removed in order to install the grease cup, which was also pre-filled with heavy grease. A half-turn of the knurled grease cup is all that it takes to force grease through holes drilled in the rocker shaft and lubricate the rocker arms. Grease extruding through what were once oiling holes on the top surface of the rocker arm webs allows one to see when the rocker arm is sufficiently lubricated.
Here’s a closeup of the rocker setup. I don’t like the way the rocker arms register on the tops of the valve caps. They’re not centered which will place a small lateral force on the valve stems and wear the valve guides. I plan to shim the rocker assembly to correct the misalignment on the intake (foreground) rocker. Note that the exhaust rocker arm in the background isn’t very well aligned with the exhaust valve cap. The holes drilled in the rocker arm assembly block are a little oversize and might move enough to correct the misalignment.
The next step was to install the cylinder head assembly. The temporary aluminum gasket was removed from the top of the cylinder, exposing the perfectly clean bore. In order to keep the porous inner layer of the head gasket from wicking coolant to the outside of the engine, I submerged the head gasket in an 8” square glass baking dish filled with floor wax, then hung the gasket outside to dry. While all the foregoing work was going on, I dried the head gasket in an oven set at 225 F.
The piston-to-head or “squish” dimension needed to be determined, so I cranked the flywheel until the piston came to near top of its travel. Then I snipped two pieces of soft lead approximately 1/8” square from a roll of lead sheet and placed each piece over the location of the piston wrist pin. I then installed the head and torqued the head bolts to 170 ft-lbs. and cranked the flywheels back and forth a few times through top dead center. When the head was removed the lead pieces were measured to determine the piston-head clearance.
The thickness of the lead pieces was measured and found to be 0.065” The spec. from the Utterpower.com website says 0.060” – 0.065” is acceptable. As the head gasket gains “experience” and the head bolts are torqued again after a few hours of running, the clearance will likely decrease a few thousandths.
It’s fortunate that the clearance was so close to spec. because the cylinder base gaskets that are used for adjusting the squish thickness measured 0.010” on the Ashwamegh.
The head was replaced and the head nuts were re-torqued to 170 ft-lbs.
Within the cups on the end of the pushrods is frequently found a protruding point of hardened metal, an artifact from the manufacture of the pushrods, and an indication that the cutter used was probably dull. These pushrods have no such protrusion which is fortunate since it would have had to be ground off with a carbide burr and then polished with silicon carbide compound.
The pushrods were installed, then the pepper-can muffler and air cleaner. Although the pepper can won’t be used on this engine, except at First Smoke, it was nice to see that this muffler was heavier and better made than the lightweight silencer that Ashwamegh supplied.
The decompressor arm which lifts the exhaust tappet seems to be a little short. It barely engages the flange on the tappet.
The fuel tank was installed and the fuel lines were connected. The fuel petcock was sealed with a piece of string which doesn’t instill confidence in the integrity of the valve. A quarter-inch ball valve with a quarter-inch British Standard Parallel Pipe Thread to NPT adapter, available from http://www.mcmaster.com will fix that.
Time spent today 2.5 hours. Total project time 4 hours.
7/20/06
Gentlemen,
This afternoon I pulled the rod bearing cap in order to inspect the crankshaft pin and measure the rod bearing clearance.
I removed the oil dipper on the rod bearing cap by loosening the lock nut and unscrewing the dipper a total of 7 turns. That is the number of turns that is required for the threaded portion of the dipper to just touch the bearing shell. There is plenty of thread in the bearing cap, so even four turns would hold it in place.
Next, I removed the cotter pins from the castle nuts on the rod bearing bolts. This is never a fun job because the cramped quarters make accessing the back-side cap nut difficult, and there is very little room to swing a wrench and many sharp edges to skin knuckles on. Last time I did this, the pin on my metal watch band let go, dropping my watch into the sump full of black oil. I removed my watch this time.
I knew the bearing cap nuts would be tight, the spec. calling for 50-60 ft-lbs., but it turned out they were way overtightened. I ended up needing to use an impact socket on a breaker bar with a 2’ pipe slipped over the end to give me enough leverage to loosen the nuts. I was relieved when the nut loosened just as the wrench handle was approaching the side of the crankcase access hatchway. That’s not usually my luck. I estimate the nuts had been tightened to appx. 120 ft-lbs.
The bearing cap with the lower bearing shell was removed and I was pleased to see that the bearing had not been installed dry. The bearing and crank pin were wet with assembly lube.
I wiped off the crank pin and bearing shells with a paper towel and inspected both shell halves carefully. The bearing shells were, of course, new so there wasn’t much to see. No surprise there. The crank pin was well machined with none of the chatter marks that were evident on the pin of my Ashwamegh.
]
The pin appeared to have been carefully machined and polished to an appx. 400 grit finish. Low-level incident light indicated that the pin was cylindrical with no dips or grooves or visible machining marks.
I polished the poorly finished crank pin on my Ashwamegh by smearing lapping compound on an old cotton sneaker shoelace passed around the crank pin several times. Pull back and forth on the ends of the lace for 10 minutes or so and the pin gleamed like Great Aunt Edna’s silver teapot.
I then reassembled the big end with a few pieces of Plasticgauge stuck with grease to the bearing shells and torqued the nuts to 60 ft-lbs. When I removed the bearing cap the Plastigauge had squished evenly to a rectangular shape, indicating the clearance was fairly constant over the width of the bearing. The clearance measured 0.0025” across the width of the bearing shell in three locations around the perimeter of the crank pin.
While reassembling the big end, small parts inevitably found their way into the lower sump. A magnetic retrieval tool is a must-have for working on this engine.
Time spent today: 1.5 hours Total project time: 5.5 hours
Well, here it is. The engine is ready to start. I found no evidence of casting sand, metal particles or even dirty fingerprints which is a significant accomplishment by your supplier, and evidence that persistence and close cooperation between supplier and dealer can achieve a level of quality that is unusual in this arena.
While the engine isn’t of the quality of a Japanese motorcycle engine, my impression is that it falls close to that of a mid-‘60s V-8 (Chevy, not Ford).
I think this indicates that many of the quality problems inherent in Indian assembled Listeroids might be attributed to the assembly process and not so much to the parts themselves. An experienced, reasonably intelligent person assembling one of these engines can end up with a quality prime mover.
The engine is not pretty (yet) but there’s lots of time for that nonsense. I know George is partial to Dark Hunter Green, but I’m sort of thinking Ferrari Red with brass acorn nuts on the covers.
Quinn
------------------------------------ Closing note from George: I praise Quinn for an excellent article, and thank him for his contributions to our DIYer community. As for his selection of colors to paint a Lister Clone, I guess this is proof that all men have their faults. Having owned a good many sports cars in my youth, I quickly learned that BRG was my color. when I was about 22 years old, I once dumped the clutch and smoked the tires thru a light, a ton of smoke! My friend in the other lane (RED Sports CAR) got pulled over by the Cops, and almost ticketed for what I did! From that point on, it's always been a darker green :-) It's a peaceful color, blends well with nature, and goes well with a cup of coffee, or if you're on the other side of the pond, a cup of tea. Another tidbit of info, and this should make Ripley's believe it or not! Just a few days ago, Rick stopped by to pick up some parts, he has a remote Buffalo Ranch. This engine ran in a desert setting, often 24/7, with only a hired hand to check on it. This was not the plan, but sometimes things don't go according to the plan.. When it finally stopped running, there were two cups of dirt found in the crank case! The dust and dirt blows so bad here at times, you can't see the buffalo standing near. I would guess that the reed valve at the crank case was not sealing well, and probably ingested as much or more dirt as the air cleaner.. As for the stock oil bath, it is worthless in an environment like this, and so easy to build your own improved air cleaner, or quickly modify the stock one as seen on the CD. Hired hands are not the best tenders of the Lister Style, it is the DIYer with solid basic skills and a nurturing attitude that keep them alive and healthy. But this is an example of how long a neglected engine can run, no wonder why the third world likes them! Of interest to DIYers, the rocker adjusters are now worn to the bottom of the adjustment! no lube, and dust and grit will wear them down, just a little lube now and then, and maybe an oil change? It goes a long ways. Yes.. the liner is scored, and so is the piston, but what other engine would run long enough to ingest two cups of wind blown dirt? The bigger question.. Had this engine been equipped with features of the Kit engine mentioned on these pages AND had it been running a non detergent oil, would it still running? A friend once reported finding unbelievable stuff at the bottom of an RA Lister sump.. it was his bet that it had never been cleaned, and was a 1930s model. A primitive and effective way to control >SOME< of the particulate in the oil, but many Indian Listers departed from this feature we both like and demand.. All the best, George
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The
pushrods were unpacked and cleaned of grease. The fact that both ends are
hardened is witnessed by the discoloration at each end. These rods will need to
be painted before they begin to rust.
