The Mother of all Lister Type Twins, the PS 28/2
updated page 6/2005
I leave the following information as a thread to follow, the 28/2 is now king, the 25/2 rained as the largest for a bit of time, it is unclear to me as to how well these big twins will hold up, there are a few with 3000 hours on them, but it will take some time to collect accurate data. The biggest problem we saw with the 25/2 Ashwamegh was casting sand, and the quality of timing gears. This issue continues to be investigated, we know what materials to specify for future engines, BUT that is not enough, we need to find fixes for all brands of Indian engines, and that is underway thanks to a group of DIyers. Just this week, I sold a new idler to a guy with a metex 6/1, the twins have failures earlier as a rule, but the metex ate the original idler in eight hours of running!
It's taken years to get this far, I've had my head in a good many crank cases, I've swapped email with Missionaries, Mechanics, Engineers, Ranchers, Fish farmers, Coconut Harvesters, and Off Grid folks from here to West Africa. I've checked out a good many Lister types, different brands, singles, twins, sleeved, bushed, spokes, oiled, greased, and you name it. I have formed relationships with Canadians West, Canadians East, Texans, Aussies, Brits, Dutch, and I meet new people all the time.
When I got home from my tour of duty in 1969, I bought a VW bug, and I didn't get them out of my system till I had bought and owned 28 of them., of course this lead to the purchase of a 911. Some would suggest it was an obsessive compulsive disorder .
Here I am at 58 years old, and I've found another thing to obsess over, I've rediscovered the Lister Type, it was a good idea long ago, and it's a great idea today. Mac McQuaid runs his 'off grid' 6/1 12-16 hours a day on used veggie, and he is getting about 4 1/2 hours per gallon average with loads that vary from 500 watts to 3000 watts during that period. I don't think the smile has left his face since he first fired up his Listgen. Lister Type engines are efficient, quiet, rugged, and simple.
Just as my experience grew with the VWs, my experience with the Lister Types has grown a good deal, there's always more to learn and old and new things to discover.
When I tried to unload my new 25/2 PS, my battery powered forklift grunted as it came off the back of the truck, I cleared away an area in the middle of my shop, and set it down. The smell of a heavy Indian engine crate is pleasant to my nose, the hour it took to break into the crate went by with a smile and it felt a little like Christmas.
The first thing I noted was the heavy gauge valve covers with a very professional stamping, These are nicely made and fully formed, they make other brands I know look like 'seconds'
Above is a picture of a casting mark in the head, see how clear and crisp the mark is, it appears to be made of nice material, and the folks who make the molds do enough of it to have gotten really good at it. This was made by a craftsmen who most likely works for a Manager who has some expectations that things be done right. This is all too rare in India, if you think I'm generalizing, you haven't done as much shopping in India as I have.
Above: Here's the fuel filter mount, it's made of a very nice cast piece with the best fuel lines I have EVER seen. All the lines on this engine are metal for the fuel delivery and high pressure. The bends are VERY nice, and it is obvious expectations were much higher for this assembly.
Here's the bottom side with a real 'O' ring for a good seal, what a concept, no dripping fuel filter, you can actually use this one! MOST engines out of India have leaky fuel tanks, and leaky fuel systems up to the injection pump.
Above: On the left, we have the extremely heavy PS canister. This is the same gauge metal you'd expect to find on 50s Detroit built Autos (good stuff:-) . PS is the only engine I've looked at that uses the Mico cartridge filter. IMHO this is the best India has to offer, and it is as good as any western design. Compare PS stuff to that on the right, I have found this Mickey Mouse nylon sleeve inside the soup can quality housing to the right on at least three different brands, it's simply junk, and if you have the same experience I have, you'll never get it to stop dripping fuel, and you know this sleeve is a strainer, not a filter... about all it would keep out of your engine is rocks. Thank you PS for having the wisdom to put a filter and fuel lines on your engine that look good and work well .
Above: braided metal covered fuel lines are plumed for fuel return lines, and they return back to the top of the fuel tank, this is really nice.
Look at this! A real brass shut off valve with a real metal fuel line instead of that crappy clear fuel line.
Massive flywheels with signs that the manufacturer even balanced the engine, what a concept!
If you use synthetic grease in these grease twist cups, you'll go a long time between twists.
Wait till you see the support for the lower end! The center bearing is housed in a huge center rib, this is so much stronger than anything I've seen to date.
Unlike the Metro twin I have, the intake flange is designed to bolt on, the metro screws on, and you must figure out how to time the threads to get the air cleaner to stand up straight.
I will add more pictures, but for now, know that this is by far the best built Lister Type I've seen out of India period, and you know I have no problem calling a dog a dog if that is the case, this engine is the 'real deal', and I would gladly pay a huge premium to have an engine like this over my Metro 12/2, there's just no comparison, even the dip stick is in a far more logical place than any twin I've seen, and come to think of it, my metro has no dip stick at all! (Metro is an exporter not an engine builder, so they may be selling something different today).
As for the dreaded casting sand... this engine is really clean, and I found NOTHING at all in the sump, this engine is as clean as a new dinner plate.
Even the start handle is three times as nice as ANY start handle I've seen out of India, there are at least two extra machine operations that have been performed that make this a safer handle to use. Makes me wonder if these other companies were supplying the US importers with seconds? I really mean that, if you look over my early comments, I warn that these start handles are dangerous, and need to be finished so they don't hook the gib key, etc. the PS handle looks great.... but did I get the only handle that looks this good ?
As you look down the flywheels, you see a nice clean edge all around, I think this is a sign that the mold makers, and those who pour the flywheels are skilled, and have honed the process,
What you see above is the HUGE center rib and center main bearing support in this design. All the other Indian twins I've personally seen support the main from the top of the deck only. I don't know who else might be building like this, but I certainly like it!
PS.... why didn't I find you first?
OK, OK, I have more to look at, and more pictures to post... when you see the difference between this lower end, and my Metro lower end, you will not believe the difference. And we haven't even got around to the subject that the PS uses the 5 ring piston just like the British built lister.
Scott Emery, (A Diesel Marine Engineer for the State) called this AM, and asked if he could come check out the PS 25/2. Wasn't long and Scott was looking for the start handle, and wondering why I hadn't tried starting it yet? I was a little concerned about running it on the crate bottom, but the engine looks so much more refined, and that hole in the fly wheel could only be there because these folks balanced the assembly right? well it didn't take much Arm twisting and I pulled a 5 quart jug of new oil off the shelf to pour in the sump.
I told Scott, we'd try, and I'd keep my hand on the fuel rack to cut it off should anything go wrong. This engine is a little more to turn over with the bigger bore, but it didn't take long and we had purged the air from the fuel lines, and it was off and running amazingly smooth. Scott and I both had big grins, and Marilynn (Scotts Wife) knew Scott would be fabricating a frame for his very own gen set shortly.
I guess I not surprised that the first three people who bought these engines have a strong connection to Marine power, and engines that are built to last. As Scott looked over the lower end, he said this reminded him of an engine the State Ferry system bought and used for 30 years, when they were done with it, the outfit they bought it from bought it back! What does wear out in these engines doesn't need replacing often, and there's nothing that can't be replaced. Ben Leach just retired from the US Navy, (thanks for your service Ben, we salute you!) He's another guy that has been exposed to stuff that's designed to run, versus work on, and he bought the 25/2 knowing that I do my best to accurately represent what I review.
The more I look at this engine and think of the huge loads people need to carry to get AC up and running, the more I realize, this could be the last engine they ever buy to run a 15KW head to full output, with these flywheels, you'll momentarily make the 15KW and then some! If you live down south you may need the Mother of All Listers. This engine might turn your whole house into one big ice cube. That 180 degree crank and slow speed sounds like music to our ears
Jim Iverson bought a 25/2 for a 24/7 operation in Oregon, he'll be running a 15KW ST head. I am looking forward to his story since he will be running WVO. His business produces all the WVO he can burn, and he has a use for the hot water from the coolant, and any other waste heat he can capture, this will be a great project for all of us to follow.
As we go up in power, my basic frame design becomes even more important, the head is mounted in a simple sub assembly that tracks inside the rails, this assures the gen head will always be aligned, and that the drive remains efficient. I have contracted with Randy Allmand to make a Custom Sheave for the PS LISGEN25/2_ST15, this will put the generator right at it's operating speed at 60 HZ.
You'll need a few pieces of heavy rail, like a 4x6 eye beam or 4x6 channel, some other scraps, a 15KW ST head, the PS 25/2, and a good used full sized auto radiator to make the generator set of your dreams. when the power company cuts you off, or a hurricane blows over your local sub station, you'll be the envy of your neighbors, with this setup, you can power all the household lights in your city block :-)
01/11/05 Time is short, but I need to let my readers know that we've received word from an owner of a 25/2 where casting sand was found in the engine. A vendor can get 20 engines, 19 can be clean, and then a dirty one.. The worker cleaning blocks and parts probably went to lunch and forgot where he left off, as I tell folks, QC in India is measured in probability, all manufacturers and exporters will tell you they are different, I am still convinced that no old style engine builder in India has a QC program worth a bowl of curry. But still, India is the only game in town, and we continue to work with this vendor to get QC where it need to be.
6/2005
We gave up on Ashwamegh and the 25/2 a good while ago, some are really nice looking engines, with some good detail, but casting sand, and poor timing gears are the problem. We had the idler gears looked over by good gear people, and they were made of the wrong material, and we question a few other gear related issues as well. Again, this is being worked on, and the DIYer community will report on it..
All the best,
George B.